A brief summary of IE migrations

[Andrew]

And some simple schemes of what I've been talking about :


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=185&i=i1900nr8.png][IMG



[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=294&i=iii1500vc0.png][IMG]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7308/iii1500vc0.2a6864349b


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=291&i=iv1300mq4.png][IMG

[Andrew]

And here is a page from the book that Chicago George showed me (M.L. West IE myth & poetry) about the archaisms nature of the Boetian dialect that can put it with the Macedonian:

page 15 :

"...the Boetian Pindar , who has the greatest amount of interest to offer. Calvert Watkins has called him "in many ways the most Indo-European of Greek poets".

I repeat , Boetian and Macedonian dialects till now share:

1) Undifferentiated nature , since in both we have "Aeolisms" and "Dorisms".
2) Many old Indo-Europeisms

The only difference being tha the Boetian dialect recieved more "Mycenaean" influence which permitted it's sound changes β,γ,δ to φ,χ,θ ..an influence that couldn't reach the Macedonian and the most northerns of the North-Western greek dialects.

[chicagogeorge]

[Flipper]

Guys...In the first post with the maps showing proto-Greek in the danube region...That is an old theory nowadays.

Considering placenames, material culture and genetics, Chadwick and Palmer were right. Furthermore, the language is closer to the PIE so the route over the danube region is kinda aqward.

Alternatively, i can accept the theory that the proto-Greek (if such thing existed) speakers that came from the north, were a small minority that standardized the language over the Dimini and Cycladic cultures and produced what we speak now.

Just some quick thoughts...I'm gonna check all posts and return.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Flipper

Guys...In the first post with the maps showing proto-Greek in the danube region...That is an old theory nowadays.

Considering placenames, material culture and genetics, Chadwick and Palmer were right. Furthermore, the language is closer to the PIE so the route over the danube region is kinda aqward.

Alternatively, i can accept the theory that the proto-Greek (if such thing existed) speakers that came from the north, were a small minority that standardized the language over the Dimini and Cycladic cultures and produced what we speak now.

Just some quick thoughts...I'm gonna check all posts and return.

Welcome Flipper !! All your thoughts are well accepted !

About the proto-Greeks in the Danube and it's similarity with PIE , I say that everything makes sence IF we accept as original homeplace of the PIE the Place where the cultures : Globular Amphora , Cored Ware and Yamna intecept , somewhere between Central and East Europe.Of course is just an theory .... Nothing cocnlusive.

And about the toponyms aren't they explained by the "Luwian"/Anatolian invasion in Greece and Asia Minor from Thrace around 2300 BC ?? If they arrived 2300 BC and the proto-Greeks 2000 BC then they have a 3 century "advantage" over the proto-Greeks on developing their toponyms. By the mixing of the two IEans (proto-Greeks , Anatolians) and by non IEans came out the Greek population.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

E418. "The oldest mycenean write is dated 1650 BC in Olympia"

Great find !!! If the Mycenaeans were already writing in Olympia in 1650 BC , then they must of have descended in Peloponnesus at least one century before ..let's say 1800 BC , because we must give them some time to impose themselves as masters and to commerce with Minoan Crete and the Aegean in order to create the Linear B.

So if 1800 BC in the Peloponnese we can put the arrival of the Greeks in North Epeirus and Albania somewhere between 2100-1900 BC .

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Great find !!! If the Mycenaeans were already writing in Olympia in 1650 BC , then they must of have descended in Peloponnesus at least one century before ..let's say 1800 BC , because we must give them some time to impose themselves as masters and to commerce with Minoan Crete and the Aegean in order to create the Linear B.

So if 1800 BC in the Peloponnese we can put the arrival of the Greeks in North Epeirus and Albania somewhere between 2100-1900 BC .

Probably earlier. I feel that that the Proto Greek tribes arrived in Epirus at latest in 2300bc and at some point around 2100bc they began their push southward into Thessaly and then further.

Here, I wish I remember what book this came from

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

"...here they waited for several centuries."

I got it .

You see I prefer the 1900 BC date because in this way there is no big gap between the arrival and the start of Mycenaean culture ..only 200 years , the logical transition time from "heighland nomadic" to "Aegean Urban" way of life. Except that I don't have any objection to earlier "coming" dates.

But accepting a long stay in Epeirus and Macedonia one can anticipate the "coming date".

[Andrew]

About Flipper's question whether or not the proto-Greeks have started from "Romania" ...my personal opinion is that they were there with the Aryans forming the Graeco-Aryan group , which could include or not the Phrygians and later split . What marked the Greek trajectory are the similarities of the cultures: Cerna Voda III >> Bubanj Hum III >>> Maliq III + Armenokhori .




And here is a map that linguist Mertinet proposed at 1997 as homeplaces of the major IE groups:


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=340&i=ie2200bcmartinetfn8.png][IMG]http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/730/ie2200bcmartinetfn8

[Cadmus]

Andrew!

Why cant i see any Pelasgians on the maps?
To what group did they belong? certainly not Anatolian isn't it?

And how did the Phryghes/bryghes managed to pass from the north two major groupes like the Proto Greeks and Satem divisions like Thracians etc..
And if the Phryghes arrived in the Balkans where were the Pelasgians who did mnaged to stop the Proto Greek descendance from Rumania into the southern areas such as Kosovo and Fyrom..and thus had to follow the Adriatic coastline via Albania and Epirus...

I do believe that they the P.G's were staying for a long time in Epirus and some didn't even migrate further south..
But i cant figure the Bryghes/Phrygians settling at the exact same spot that is before or after the P.G.'s settling in Epirus...i dont get it help me?