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Old 04-27-2008, 10:40 PM
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Default Patriarch: Greek Orthodox Church recovering from crisis

Patriarch: Greek Orthodox Church recovering from crisis
By SARAH EL DEEB – 1 day ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Secretive real estate deals, hostility to priests, fist fights over Christ's tomb, a power struggle between patriarchs — one of the oldest churches in the Holy Land is struggling to get through a moral and financial crisis, its leader says.

In a rare interview with The Associated Press, Patriarch Theofilos III says his Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is in "the position of an acrobat," faced by challenges on all sides.

The Orthodox Easter Week, which ends Sunday, was overshadowed again by squabbling. On Palm Sunday, Armenian and Greek Orthodox worshippers exchanged blows over rights of worship at Church of the Holy Sepulcher, built on the site where tradition says Jesus was entombed and resurrected.

However, Saturday's holy fire ceremony at the Holy Sepulcher ended without trouble, even though some 10,000 pilgrims from different denominations crowded into the shrine. The patriarch said he had sorted out the dispute with the Armenians ahead of Saturday's ceremony.

"We don't want to have more problems like this because they damage and destroy the image and the spirit of such events that are really very unique," the 56-year-old patriarch said of last week's fight.

In recent years, the church has been shaken by secretive real estate deals with Israelis, by Palestinian laymen angry about domination by Greek priests, and by a power struggle that reached an unusual climax with the ouster of an incumbent patriarch, Irineos I.

Theofilos, his rival, succeeded him in 2005. But not until December was he formally recognized by the three governments in the Holy Land — Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority. This Easter was the first in which he has led the rites unchallenged.

His flock of now 90,000 keeps shrinking, as do the other Christian denominations hit by emigration and relatively low birth rates. The patriarch is struggling to maintain a delicate balance among the church, its Arab congregants and the Israeli government. And he says he is trying to bring fiscal transparency to an institution that is the second largest landowner in the Holy Land after the state of Israel, yet chronically in debt.

"The crisis that the patriarchate passed through, it was both moral, which was the most important, and of course financial," he said. "There is no doubt about it. Now we are gradually recovering because order has been restored."

Irineos was ousted amid allegations that he leased two church-owned hotels in traditionally Arab east Jerusalem to groups trying to expand a Jewish presence there. The deal enraged his predominantly Palestinian flock, because Palestinians claim east Jerusalem as the capital of a future state.

Irineos has denied the allegations, and Theofilos has said he considers the leases invalid because they were never presented to the synod for approval. The dispute has since moved to an Israeli court.

The church would closely study all future transactions, he said. "We are not going to accept anymore the patriarchate to be treated as a real estate agency."

Israel only recognized Theofilos in December. During more than two years of rival patriarchs, Irineos refused to step down or leave his official residence. He has since been demoted to monk.

Theofilos said he would honor all transactions made with the state of Israel earlier, and new land leases would go through the synod.

"The patriarchate ... emerges as a state within a state, as an entity, a very powerful entity, spiritual entity but it is an entity which lives on the ground and not in the clouds," he said.

Theofilos tries to be diplomatic and non-confrontational in dealing with the governments in question, saying only that Israel's long delay in ratifying his appointment was a "grave mistake."

The patriarch also has addressed complaints by Palestinian Christians of second-class treatment in the Greek-dominated church. An Arab clergyman has been appointed the spokesman of the patriarchate, a first. Theofilos promoted another Arab priest to archbishop. In the 18-member synod, where the vast majority of members are Greek, he finally filled a long-vacant seat reserved for an Arab.

Dimitri Diliani, a church member who was among those pushing to remove the previous patriarch, said Theofilos had walked "a thorny road" in a churchmanlike way, and his reforms had helped.

Before that, he said, "People were embarrassed to say they were Orthodox."
Hosted by Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:56 AM
Relax be à ÷ñÞóôçò Relax be äåí åßíáé óõíäåäåìÃíïò
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Not good at all. They should noT be Punching up with the other priests, that's not why they are there, they should all be ashamed of themselves.
There is a lot of mistrust and suspicion among the different orthodox factions in Jerusalem, they all want to have a bigger turf, they have forgotten why they are there. MAYBE THATS WHY THE NUMBERS ARE GOING DOWN. Lets hope we get one of our own there soon.

Last edited by Relax be; 09-02-2008 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:49 AM
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Not good at all. They should noT be Punching up with the other priests, that's not why they are there, they should all be ashamed of themselves.
There is a lot of mistrust and suspicion among the different orthodox factions in Jerusalem, they all want to have a bigger turf, they have forgotten why they are there. MAYBE THATS WHY THE NUMBERS ARE GOING DOWN. Lets hope we get one of our own there soon.
The numbers are going down because the Christians are mistrusted by both the Jews and the Muslims, who are the predominant element in the area. The Jews are forcing all of the Patriarchs to sell land to them or they won't get recognized, and the Muslims are chasing the Christians out because of the frequent collaboration between Christians and Jews in the past and perhaps the present.

The same happens in Lebanon where Christian Orthodox, Maronites, Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims are fighting each other frequently.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:41 PM
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The numbers are going down because the Christians are mistrusted by both the Jews and the Muslims, who are the predominant element in the area. The Jews are forcing all of the Patriarchs to sell land to them or they won't get recognized, and the Muslims are chasing the Christians out because of the frequent collaboration between Christians and Jews in the past and perhaps the present.

The same happens in Lebanon where Christian Orthodox, Maronites, Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims are fighting each other frequently.
I reckon that is not accurate. They cant deny them freedom of religion based on whether they sell them land. Should be an uproar.

There are definitely some hardcore Zionist Jews that hate Christians and have clashed with them.

As far as Lebanon, that is a classical case of war by proxies.
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:46 PM
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Lets hope we get one of our own there soon.
How cute. What exactly do you think Jerusalem is, some place where you can set up shop? First get the other Orthodox churches to stop seeing you as schismatic and then your hierarchs might secure a formal invitation to visit the place from the Patriarch in Jerusalem. All the churches (Greek Orthodox, Armenian, Russian, Catholic) in Jerusalem have secured their exact rights (to the very inch of church property) under Ottoman edicts. There is no place left for your ilk.

As for the whole land sales issue in Jerusalem please educate yourself and then talk. The Patriarchy is one of the largest landowners in Israel and owns a lot of land in East Jerusalem that Israel wants Jewish organizations to buy to secure their foothold to the rest of the city. The Palestinians don't want a brick to be sold and the Patriarch is caught between the majority of his flock and the power of the land that can grant him recognition. Of course the rest of the world does not care - at worst the Catholic, Armenian and Russian church think they can end up with a better deal with the Israelis.
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Old 09-03-2008, 03:42 AM
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I reckon that is not accurate. They cant deny them freedom of religion based on whether they sell them land. Should be an uproar.
This is Israel (like we say "This is Sparta"!) Do you expect an EFFECTIVE uproar against the Jews? There are many uproars but they are not listening anyway...

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There are definitely some hardcore Zionist Jews that hate Christians and have clashed with them.

As far as Lebanon, that is a classical case of war by proxies.
Yeah, but they tend to chase the Muslims much more often that the Christians. The attacks from Zionists to Christians are a rarity.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:53 AM
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This is Israel (like we say "This is Sparta"!) Do you expect an EFFECTIVE uproar against the Jews? There are many uproars but they are not listening anyway...



Yeah, but they tend to chase the Muslims much more often that the Christians. The attacks from Zionists to Christians are a rarity.
Not really, the religious hardcore Zionists chase everyone equally. The priests are targeted very often
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:28 PM
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Not really, the religious hardcore Zionists chase everyone equally. The priests are targeted very often
Perhaps you are right, if you consider that there are more Muslims around for targeting and thus they suffer the most. The *GAP* in your reasoning is to view all of the Israelis as hardcore Zionists while the latter are a meagre minority. The Israelites, in their vast majority, do not persecute the Christians, even the Arab Christians...
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:23 AM
Relax be à ÷ñÞóôçò Relax be äåí åßíáé óõíäåäåìÃíïò
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Perhaps you are right, if you consider that there are more Muslims around for targeting and thus they suffer the most. The *GAP* in your reasoning is to view all of the Israelis as hardcore Zionists while the latter are a meagre minority. The Israelites, in their vast majority, do not persecute the Christians, even the Arab Christians...
Well the gap in your reasoning is to assume that a Zionist/s refers to all Israeli Jews. By using Zionist I make a distinction between them and ordinary Jews, so cut the crap.

Last edited by Relax be; 09-05-2008 at 09:25 AM.
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