New albanian propaganda theory

[Truth Bearer]

How did they adopt a Hellenic culture,there's never been rocorded that the Dorians used interpretors to communictae with the other Greeks.And we know that Sparta was never conquered until way over 1000 after the Dorians arrived in Peloponessus.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

TB i don't usualy believe or have an opinion about things that i don't know.
All i know is that the minoic and the later mycenean architecture and the doric are quite different.Dorians introduced many elements like the slooping roofs(typical for northern regions),that at the beging were even more inclined (im speaking about the early arcaic period) when temples were still made of wood.
So if they came from the north,maybe they were illyrians.

I see you like ideas that promote Albanians nationalism eh?sloping roof?where did you find that?is there any document for this funny statement?because if this your only statement this is a silly one.the Doric style of architecture was a rather more simple Ionian.Therefore,typical Greek.As for sloping roofs because this is what you thought they existed since the Minoan times (probably even from Kro Magnon people),found in some paintings because it is typical for mountainous regions and Greece is a mountainous one.Anyway,as for linguistic the Dorians had their own Greek dialect which was different from the rest.If they adopted one they would adopted the Attic or the Arcadian,something they didn't.From Crete to Macedonia and to Sicily where we can find the Dorians we can see their unique culture.this unique culture wouldn't have happened if the got ''hellenised''.and by the way they did not came from the north.they lived in central Greece as history and archeology proves.the hellenised theory is a rather funny one made by people without sufficient knowledge on the issue.The time the Dorians appeared they wouldn't have adopted any other culture because Greece that time was a pretty small civilization.The Illyrians and the Thracians for example were hellenised much later in the roman times were the Greek spirit was at its best.The time the Dorians arrived there was nothing in Greece.Athens was just a small village and Peloponnese was only a region of peasants which were later enslaved from the Dorians(Spartans).So they only culture there could have been promoted would be only the Dorian one thus showing definitely is a Greek one from the start!

p.s.1
the Kares who lived near Greeks weren't hellenised till the roman times.the Hellenization theory suits better from the 2nd century B.C.
p.s.2
why do you believe you are Illyrians,can you tell me one scientist of the modern era who support that?
p.s.3your conclusion is not very clear and unrelated to your post since you didn't explain what special culture the Illyrians had and why if they came from they north(which did not happened they lived in central Greece) they might be illyrians.anyway it was the Illyrians who adopted foreign cultures so we do not know many things of them.

[olvios]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

So if they came from the north,maybe they were illyrians.

*You are not Illyrians
*Illyrians were not Dorians
*Dorian's were Greeks
*No ancient Greek in Albanian language thus nothing to do with Ancient Greeks or Illyrians as they were effected by it

That came from the North they maybe Germans variant was once told by some as well.

Anyways



Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986

[TirAlb]

I was asked to give my opinion and i did it olvios.About the roofs is true,do your researches,ill try to find the author of the book were i saw it.By the way olvios saying that ionic and,doric are the same,thats silly,is the same of saying romanic is the same of gothic,or michelaengelos works are the same of Berninis works.But i have to admit that doric and ionic are certainly related and the second one is a natual development of the first.But i cant say the same about mycenean and doric architecture,they are two different.
Ps.olvios since you are an expert,a trivial question for you,of what order was made the colisseum?
About dorians,really i don't care they can be,greeks,and probably they were,if you are so sure of it i don't understand why an utube video worries you.
And another question,why the cyclopic or pelasgian walls were called so from greeks?Why didn't they call that tecnic greek,and why did they lost the memory of it,strange since we had a greek continum...

[olvios]

You ignore basic things on issues.Albanians have nothing to do with ancient Greeks( Dorians, Epirotes or any other).There are appropriate threads of subjects.Pelasgians were entwined in myth and there is a continuum from Mycenaean Greece to Archaic & Classic Greece.The Doric Greeks had Mycenaean centers among them as well.The so called Pelasgians walls were for the most part Greek Mycenaean constructions & neolithic remains.And the lost memory is silly as well, people did not have means of storing data to span millenia for public shareware usage.


The youtube video was simply an exhibition of the stupidity of Albanian nationalist claims.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I was asked to give my opinion and i did it olvios.About the roofs is true,do your researches,ill try to find the author of the book were i saw it.By the way olvios saying that ionic and,doric are the same,thats silly,is the same of saying romanic is the same of gothic,or michelaengelos works are the same of Berninis works.But i have to admit that doric and ionic are certainly related and the second one is a natual development of the first.But i cant say the same about mycenean and doric architecture,they are two different.
Ps.olvios since you are an expert,a trivial question for you,of what order was made the colisseum?
About dorians,really i don't care they can be,greeks,and probably they were,if you are so sure of it i don't understand why an utube video worries you.
And another question,why the cyclopic or pelasgian walls were called so from greeks?Why didn't they call that tecnic greek,and why did they lost the memory of it,strange since we had a greek continum...

You might help us about the roofs to see where we can find it..this silly comment.Slopping roofs are applied to mountainous regions and Greece is pretty much mountainous one with snow and rain don't you think?So it is not necessarily brought from other regions....
As for Dorian and Ionian Style. the Ionian is not an advance model of the Dorian.They appeared in different times and regions.more probably the Dorian one was inspired form the Ionian since we do not have much examples of the Dorian style but many of the Ionian one which is the oldest.The Doric Style was first developed in central Greece whereas the Ionian in Asia minor and the Ionians were famous merchants whereas Dorians no,so the Ionians could spread their culture.Mycenaean culture was developed in the 12 century b.C. when the Doric style is found in late 5th and the Ionic in early 5th late 6th .So your comment about the connection between the two styles is rejected since they are made in different times.As you said we cannot compare romanic and Gothic style...so we can not compare Mycenaean and Dorian style which have 700 years difference.Moreover since you said you do not know much then you may not start a conversation

As from the Cyclopean and Pelasgian names we do not have much info and you might ask an historician to answer you.But The cyclopean walls were the wall made by the Greeks in the Mycenaean times.They are proved to be Greeks because they spoke a Greek dialect according Linear B.When the Mycenaean Greeks declined many things changed and according to evidence there were many migrations,the sea people.probably the large cities were attacked,yes there is much evidence of that so the citizens migrated to other areas to live.Later the descendants of them called those walls as Cyclopean in about 4th century after 800 years.There's been much time since the Mycenaean times and many things changed.you see that ancient years were not a season and everybody remembered what happened previously but there was much of the memory that was lost especially when there is a period of 800 years with many wars,famines etc etc and when the alphabet was introduced much later....

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Sniper

You might help us about the roofs to see where we can find it..this silly comment.Slopping roofs are applied to mountainous regions and Greece is pretty much mountainous one with snow and rain don't you think?So it is not necessarily brought from other regions....
As for Dorian and Ionian Style. the Ionian is not an advance model of the Dorian.They appeared in different times and regions.more probably the Dorian one was inspired form the Ionian since we do not have much examples of the Dorian style but many of the Ionian one which is the oldest.The Doric Style was first developed in central Greece whereas the Ionian in Asia minor and the Ionians were famous merchants whereas Dorians no,so the Ionians could spread their culture.Mycenaean culture was developed in the 12 century b.C. when the Doric style is found in late 5th and the Ionic in early 5th late 6th .So your comment about the connection between the two styles is rejected since they are made in different times.As you said we cannot compare romanic and Gothic style...so we can not compare Mycenaean and Dorian style which have 700 years difference.Moreover since you said you do not know much then you may not start a conversation

As from the Cyclopean and Pelasgian names we do not have much info and you might ask an historician to answer you.But The cyclopean walls were the wall made by the Greeks in the Mycenaean times.They are proved to be Greeks because they spoke a Greek dialect according Linear B.When the Mycenaean Greeks declined many things changed and according to evidence there were many migrations,the sea people.probably the large cities were attacked,yes there is much evidence of that so the citizens migrated to other areas to live.Later the descendants of them called those walls as Cyclopean in about 4th century after 800 years.There's been much time since the Mycenaean times and many things changed.you see that ancient years were not a season and everybody remembered what happened previously but there was much of the memory that was lost especially when there is a period of 800 years with many wars,famines etc etc and when the alphabet was introduced much later....

Look im not speaking about invetend facts and its not my own statement,temples that later evolved in what was called Doric order,were made of wood,much more simple than the later ones.They hade no perystyle,or pronaus but only two wooden colums at the entrance of the cell.The cell was covered with exessively slooped roofs,silmilar to the alpine houses.
I don't know how familiar are you with ancient and medieval architeture but saying that doric came from jonic thats silly,because doric is older.The order is not just the shape of the capital.These are two different orders,the first used mostly in present greece and magna grecia and the second in ionia.and the jonic shows a major costruttive knowledge and its more recent.Even the parthenon that can be considered late doric is not exactly doric because its proportions are very similar with the jonic,and the old temple was pure doric,later for the Erechtheon they used only jonic.So in an area originally doric,they started to use jonic.I mentioned on porpouse the relations between romanic and gothic because these are clearly two different styles that had a paralel evolution aswell.but the second is a natural evolution of the first.And we have roughly the same relations beetwen doric and jonic.But i never said that the the two order are totally different,indeed i said exactly the opposite.
What i said is that the mycenean and greek architetture are very very different and im not interested in the origin of the dorians,or of the myceneans.

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Look im not speaking about invetend facts and its not my own statement,temples that later evolved in what was called Doric order,were made of wood,much more simple than the later ones.They hade no perystyle,or pronaus but only two wooden colums at the entrance of the cell.The cell was covered with exessively slooped roofs,silmilar to the alpine houses.
I don't know how familiar are you with ancient and medieval architeture but saying that doric came from jonic thats silly,because doric is older.The order is not just the shape of the capital.These are two different orders,the first used mostly in present greece and magna grecia and the second in ionia.and the jonic shows a major costruttive knowledge and its more recent.Even the parthenon that can be considered late doric is not exactly doric because its proportions are very similar with the jonic,and the old temple was pure doric,later for the Erechtheon they used only jonic.So in an area originally doric,they started to use jonic.I mentioned on porpouse the relations between romanic and gothic because these are clearly two different styles that had a paralel evolution aswell.but the second is a natural evolution of the first.And we have roughly the same relations beetwen doric and jonic.But i never said that the the two order are totally different,indeed i said exactly the opposite.
What i said is that the mycenean and greek architetture are very very different and im not interested in the origin of the dorians,or of the myceneans.

Look.Wood was used as well as for Mycenaean temples.and in the early stage of humanity wood was the most useful tool.I told you and gave you the centuries but you didn't understand it I suppose?The ionic was developed in the early 5th and the Dorian in the late 5th,after a century about.i'm not an artist or whatever but as far as i know Doric was inspired from the ionic and due to the glory of the second it was not used that much.it was used specially in occasions when economy was not that good to demand something more beautiful.Ionians Greeks had more choices for developing their society rather than the Greeks in Europe and that is why we have so many examples from them such as poetry,architecture etc etc.Moreover as I told you they were great merchants so they could spread their knowledges in the main land of Greece,in a time when eastern civilizations inspired them because they were much more advanced.So Doric wasn't something brought from north,especially when Europe that time wasn't developed at all ,but this order was developed in the Greek mainland with Ionian inspiration.I did not asked when or where the two orders where used,something I've mentioned previously,but what I wrote was to show you that the statement of the slopped roof is funny even more when it is your only clue and there isn't any other.But you carried on without any other ''clue'' or a quote from a scientific source.It shown shown from paintings that roofs like that existed in Greece even in minoan times.Greece due to its mountainous regions is a place where such innovations can be made.finally the Doric order was developed much later from that famous Doric invasion,at least 600(11th-5th centuries B.C.) years.That time many things changed and nothing was similar as the time of the invasion.Different times different models, even in architecture.So there is no reason to be brought from outside.except if you have political reason to undermine the Greek society by using such silly comments

so there is no reason to carry on this discussion even more when we all know that Dorians were definitely Greeks

p.s.Myceneans were the proto-Creeks. told you that Mycenaeans lived in the 12th century whereas the classical age was in the 5th century after 700 years.many things changed that time and there is a huge loss because much of that time there wasn't any alphabet to secure the knowledge.So nothing could be very similar.It is like telling me that modern German culture is like the Gothic one or the Italian like the Latin.

[TirAlb]

Ok,ok let stop this.I want just to underline that this sentence is incorrect.You can try argue about that all day long but it will remain incorrect.

The ionic was developed in the early 5th and the Dorian in the late 5th,after a century about

[Truth Bearer]

Are we talking about columns here??