Ervald on the purity of Albanians

[Ervald]

there is not such thing as "Ελληνική φυλή" never was never will

[Tsontos]

I had to split this thread from Greece in WW2 where Ervald originally made this post. On his topic, here is an excerpt from Brailsford's Macedonia: its races and their future published in 1906

Of the origin and history of the Albanians it is difficult to write much that has meaning with any certainty. One fact only is fairly well established — that they are not newcomers. The Greeks, anxious to identify them with a race akin to the Hellenes, declare with conviction that they are the descendants of the Pelasgi of antiquity. But who were the Pelasgi ? They must have been known to the Romans under the generic name of Illyrians, a race as intractable and as impervious to civilisation as are the modern inhabitants of Albania....


....They are, at all events, a race which never possessed a civilisation of its own, never completely assimilated the culture of its neighbours, and always led, in spite of Greek schools or Roman roads, the same wild tribal life in the same inaccessible mountains. Ethno-logically it belongs to the Indo-European group, and probably it migrated to its present fastnesses before the Italian and the Hellenic branches, which are its nearest kinsmen. The Albanian language, despite marked dialectical variations, is essentially the same wherever it is spoken — as far north as the Montenegrin border or as far south as the Gulf of Arta. It is unquestionably an Aryan language, sufficiently distinct both from Slav and from Greek, and superficially at least more nearly akin to Latin than to Greek. But it has borrowed so much from all the tongues with which it has been in contact that it is difficult to tell at a glance how many of these manifestly Aryan words it brought from the Aryan home, and how many it has recovered in recent centuries. An educated Southern Albanian employs as many obviously Greek words as a Hellenised Vlach, while a Northern Albanian exerts his predatory talents upon Italian and Servian.

There are great differences between the Albanian dialects of the south (Tosk) and those of the north (Gheg), and oddly enough the Gheg is said to be the softer and more musical speech. To my ear, I confess, both sound equally harsh and unattractive. These differences are perhaps rather less considerable than one would expect when one remembers that neither dialect has been reduced to writing before the present generation, that each borrows its abstract terms from an alien language unknown to the other, and that in this land of mountains and brigandage there is very little communication between north and south. A patriotic Albanian will always declare that a Gheg and Tosk understand each other without much difficulty. I am a little distrustful of this assurance, but undoubtedly as the language tends to be standardised and cultivated it must also become more universally comprehensible. It is also a very disputable point whether ethnologically the Albanians are really a single stock. Physically there are marked differences among them.

But even more powerful than the Greek was the Servian influence. Scutari was for a time the capital of the Servian Empire, and even Jannina was governed for a considerable period before the Turkish conquest by Servian dukes, who were usually of the royal blood. Nor can this occupation have been purely military, for to this day perhaps the majority of the place-names of Central and Northern Albania are Slavonic. The Serbs, one suspects, must have left a good deal more behind them than the names of villages.

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by Ervald

there is not such thing as "Ελληνική φυλή" never was never will

There is no such thing as race Ervald, so there's no Albanian race eather

[gmellos]

Here is my opinion on the origins of the ALbanian people Please do not be offended as this post is not meant to offend just give an opinion.

I found the following in wikipedia

While it is considered established that the Albanians originated in the Balkans, the exact location from which they spred out is hard to pinpoint. Despite varied claims, the Albanians almost certainly came from slightly farther north (Kosovo) and inland (Northwest Macedonia) than would suggest the present borders of Albania, with a homeland concentrated in the mountains. The purely linguistic reasons are listed below.


First, Albanian has few early Greek borrowings, most of which are from the Northwest dialect, probably via the islands off the coast of Albania, e.g. WGk (Doric) mākhaná gave Alb mokër "mill" and WGk drápanon gave Alb drapër "sickle". Indeed, the very word for Greek, gërk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k.

Similarly, the Illyrian coast is not a likely source since Albanian has no inherited nautical or indigenous sea-faring terminology, and has instead supplemented this absence with subsequent borrowing from Latin or Greek or recent metaphorical lexical creations.

Third, toponyms along the coast, in contrast with native penultimate accent (ex: mbësë "niece" < PA nepō'tia), often show substratal antepenultimate accent (ex: Durrës < Dúrrhachium; Pojanë < Apóllonia), though there are some exceptions (Vlorë < Aulónā vs. Greek Aúlon).

Also, some consider Albanian to be the source for a small number of grammatical and lexical similarities shared by otherwise dissimilar languages including Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and to some extent Greek. Based on their extent of grammaticalization, these include: the postposition of articles, the presence of schwa, and the loss of infinitives.
Finally, few if any Proto-Albanian place names exist in what was the former Roman province of Illyria. Instead, given the overwhelming amount of shepherding and mountaineering vocabulary as well as the extensive influence of Latin, it is more likely the Albanians come from north of the Jireček line, on the Latin-speaking side, perhaps in part from the late Roman province of Dardania from the western Balkans. However, archaeology has more convincingly pointed to the early Byzantine province of Praevitana (modern northern Albania) which shows an area where a primarily shepherding, transhumance population of Illyrians retained their culture. This area was based in the Mat district and the region of high mountains in Northern Albania, as well as in Dukagjin, Mirditë, and the mountains of Drin, from where the population would descend in the summer to the lowlands of western Albania, the Black Drin (Drin i zi) river valley, and into parts of Old Serbia. Indeed, the region's complete lack of Latin place names seems to imply little latinization of any kind and a more likely spot for the early medieval heart of Albanian territory, following the collapse of the Illyrian province

Linguistic Influences

The period in which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted and drawn out over six centuries, 1st c. AD to 6th or 7th c. AD. This is born out into roughly three layers of borrowings, the largest number belonging to the second layer. The first, with the fewest borrowings, was a time of less important interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller amount of borrowings. Each layer is characterized by a different treatment of most vowels, the first layer having several that follow the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; later layers reflect vowel changes endemic to Late Latin and presumably Proto-Romance. Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as a largescale palatalization.

A brief period followed, between 7th c. AD and 9th c. AD, that was marked by heavy borrowings from Southern Slavic, some of which predate the "o-a" shift common to the modern forms of this language group. Starting in the latter 9th c. AD, a period followed of protracted contact with the Proto-Romanians, or Vlachs, though lexical borrowing seems to have been mostly one sided - from Albanian into Romanian. Such a borrowing indicates that the Romanians migrated from an area where the majority was Slavic (i.e. Middle Bulgarian) to an area with a majority of Albanian speakers, i.e. Dardania, where Vlachs are recorded in the 10th c. AD. Their movement is probably related to the espansion of the Bulgarian empire into Albania around that time. This fact places the Albanians at a rather early date in the Western or Central Balkans, most likely in the region of Kosovo and Northern Albania.


Historical Considerations

Combined with archaeology and history, it seems likely that a concentrated core of Albanian territory during the Middle Ages lay in a quadrilateral with vertices at Bar, Prizren, Ohrid, and Vlorë. Indeed, the center of the Albanians remained the river Mat, and in 1079 AD they are recorded in the territory between Ohrid and Thessalonika as well as in Epirus; Albanian place names from a large portion of Macedonia and parts of Serbia indicate former Albanian territories.

Furthermore, the major Tosk-Gheg dialect division is based on the course of the Shkumbin River, a seasonal stream that lay near the old Via Egnatia. Since rhotacism postdates the dialect division, it is reasonable that the major dialect division occurred after the christianization of the Roman Empire (4th c. AD) and before the eclipse of the East-West land-based trade route by Venetian seapower (10th c. AD).

References to the existence of Albanian as a distinct language survive from the 1300s, but without recording any specific words. The oldest surviving documents written in Albanian are the "Formula e Pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula), "Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit." (I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durres in 1462 in the Gheg dialect, and some New Testament verses from that period.

The oldest known Albanian printed book, Meshari [1] or missal, was written by Gjon Buzuku, a Roman Catholic cleric, in 1555. The first Albanian school is believed to have been opened by Franciscans in 1638 in Pdhanë. In 1635, Frang Bardhi wrote the first Latin-Albanian dictionary.



The origin of the Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Albanians are people who speak Albanian, an Indo-European language. Though the vocabulary contains some Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish words, the language per se has no other close living relative, making it difficult to determine from what ancient Balkan language it evolved. Genetical anthropology, however, suggest common ancestral origin with most European people despite linguistical uniqueness.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 Place of origin
2 Written sources
2.1 References to early peoples of uncertain ethnic identity
2.2 Undisputed references to Albanians
2.3 First mentions
3 Ethnic origin
3.1 Illyrian Origin
3.1.1 Continuity in Albania south of the Jireček Line
3.2 Thracian/Dacian origin
4 See also
5 References



Place of origin

The place where the Albanian language was formed is also uncertain, but analyses have suggested that it was in a mountainous region, rather than in a plain or seacoast: while the words for plants and animals characteristic of mountainous regions are entirely original, the names for fish and for agricultural activities (such as ploughing) are borrowed from other languages.

It can also be presumed that the Albanians did not live in Dalmatia, because the Latin influence over Albanian is of Balkan Romance (that evolved into Romanian) origin, rather than of Dalmatian origin. This Balkan Romance influence includes Latin words exhibiting idiomatic expressions and changes in meaning found only in Romanian and not in other Romance languages. Adding to this the words common only to Albanian and Romanian, it may be assumed that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time. Generally, the areas where this might have happened are considered to be regions varying from Transylvania, Eastern Serbia (the region around Naissus), Kosovo and Northern Albania.

However, most agricultural terms in Romanian are of Latin origin, but not the terms related to city activities — indicating that Romanians were an agricultural people in the low plains, as opposed to Albanians, who were originally shepherds in the highlands.

Some scholars even explain the gap between the Bulgarian and Serbian languages by postulating an Albanian-Romanian buffer-zone east of the Morava river. Although an intermediary Serbian dialect exists, it was formed only later, after the Serbian expansion to the east.

Another argument that sustains a northern origin of the Albanians is the relatively small number of words of Greek origin, although Southern Illyria was under the influence of Greek/Byzantine civilization and language, especially after the breakdown of the Roman Empire.

Written sources

The following written sources are presented as relevant to the origin of the Albanians:

Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
References to early peoples of uncertain ethnic identity

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.

In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.

In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

Undisputed references to Albanians

The first undisputed mention of the ancestors of modern Albanians seems to be in the form of Arbanitai of Arbanon in an account by Anna Comnena of the troubles in that region during the reign of her father Alexius I Comnenus (1081-1118) by the Normans. (The Alexiad, 4)

In History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates referred to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.

1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).

First mentions

The word Shqipetar by which Albanians today refer to themselves was recorded for the first time in the 14th century, and it appears to have originally been a family name in the city of Berat.

The first known use of the word Albanian to refer to them was in 1595 by Marco Gini.[1]


Ethnic origin

The three chief candidates considered by historians are Illyrian, Dacian, or Thracian, though there were other non-Greek groups in the ancient Balkans, including Paionians (who lived north of Macedon) and Agrianians. The Illyrian language and the Thracian language are generally considered to have been on different Indo-European branches. Not much is left of the old Illyrian, Dacian or Thracian tongues, making it difficult to match Albanian with them.

There is debate whether the Illyrian language was a Centum or Satem language. Some evidence suggests that it was centum, but it is not conclusive. It is also uncertain whether Illyrians spoke a homogeneous language or rather a collection of different but related languages that were wrongly considered the same language by ancient writers. The same is sometimes said of the Thracian language. For example, based on the toponyms and other lexical items, Thracian and Dacian were probably different but related languages.

In the early half of the 20th century, many scholars thought that Thracian and Illyrian were one language branch, but due to the lack of evidence, most linguists are skeptical and now reject this idea, and usually place them on different branches. The Messapian language is often included as an Illyrian language, but this is disputed.


Illyrian Origin

The theory that Albanians were related to the Illyrians was proposed for the first time by a German historian in 1774.[2]

There are two variants of the theory: one is that the Albanian language represents a survival of an indigenous Illyrian language spoken in what is now Albania. The other is that the Albanian language is the descendant of an Illyrian language that was spoken north of the Jireček Line and probably north or northeast of Albania.

There is a gap of several centuries between the last historical mention of Illyrians (and the Illyrian tribe Albanoi) and the later mention of Albanians and of the names Albanon and Arbanon to indicate the region. Supporters of either theory say that the term Albanian gradually came to be applied to the surviving Illyrians.
There are some direct correspondences of vocabulary between Albanian and Illyrian [3], but none of these correspondences is conclusive for the purpose of determining whether or not Albanian is an Illyrian language. A number of Illyrian lexical items (toponyms, hydronyms, oronyms, anthroponyms, etc.) have been linked to Albanian.


Continuity in Albania south of the Jireček Line

The Jireček Line divides the areas of the Balkans which were under Latin and Greek influence.Many problems for the theory of Albanian continuity in Albania are recognized, and are addressed in various ways as the case may be.

One problem is the lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while several scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, other scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romanic language [3].

The lack [4] or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek into Albanian is another problem (v. Hemp). As the Jireček Line shows, if Albanians were continuously settled throughout Albania since Illyrian times, they would have been, in the south, in more or less constant contact with the Greeks, and the absence or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek is hard to explain within the context of Albanian continuity. Even Greek loans into Illyrian are known (cf. Wilkes, et al.; including Illyrian names borrowed from Greek), so their absence in Albanian as an alleged descendant of Illlyrian as it was spoken in Albania is doubly difficult to explain.

Another problem is the ancient Illyrian and Roman toponyms (including hydronyms, etc.) in what is now Albania compared to their equivalents in the Albanian language. While a number may (most cases are contested among linguists) pose no major or definite problem in terms of linguistic evolution (v. Hemp), many others appear to have entered through one or more intermediary languages, which strongly indicates that the ancestors of Albanians were not in Albania (v. Hemp et al.). For example, Albanian Shkodër from Latin Scodra and Albanian Tomor from Latin Tomarus do not match the Albanian phonological evolution (v. Hemp).

The written historical records pose another problem. The modern Albanians were not mentioned in Byzantine chronicles until 1043, although Illyria was part of the Byzantine Empire. The Illyrians are referred to for the last time as an ethnic group in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD). [5]


Thracian/Dacian origin

Albanians in the 5th-10th centuries according to the Dacian theoryAside from an Illyrian origin, a Dacian or Thracian origin is also hypothesized. There are a number of factors taken as evidence for a Dacian or Thracian origin of Albanians.

Albanian shares several hundred common words with Eastern Romance, these Eastern Romance words being part of the pre-Roman substrate (see: Eastern Romance substratum) and not loans; Albanian and Eastern Romance also share grammatical features (see Balkan language union) and phonological features, such as the common phonemes or the rhotacism of "n". [6]

Linguists such as Vladimir Georgiev have concluded that the phonology of the Dacian language is close to those of Albanian. However, the degree of this closeness has been criticized and challenged by other linguists, and it is based on incomplete evidence. [7]

Names of the cities that follow Albanian phonetic laws (which include Shtip, Shkupi and Niš) are in the areas once inhabited by Thracians, Dardani [8], and Paionians; however, Illyrians also inhabited or may have inhabited these regions, including Naissus. Hemp for example states that Naissus may as well be considered Illyrian territory. [9]

There are some close correspondences between Thracian and Albanian words [5]. However, as with Illyrian, most Dacian and Thracian words and names have not been closely linked with Albanian (v. Hemp). Also, many Dacian and Thracian placenames were made out of joined names (such as Dacian Sucidava or Thracian Bessapara; see List of Dacian cities and List of ancient Thracian cities), while the modern Albanian language does not allow this. [5]

There are no records that indicate a migration of Dacians into present day Albania. However, Thracian tribes such as the Briges were present in Albania near Durres since before the Roman conquest (v. Hemp) [5]. An argument against a Thracian origin (which does not apply to Dacian) is that most Thracian territory was on the Greek half of the Jirecek Line, aside from varied Thracian populations stretching from Thrace into Albania, passing through Paionia and Dardania and up into Moesia; it is considered that most Thracians were Hellenized in Thrace (v. Hoddinott) and Macedonia.

[effie]

Gmellos, it is no use posting facts.

Both Albanians and Fyromians want our history and our land. They do not want to do research into their origins and I am sure that you will receive no reply to what you just posted. These people are not interested in what has been recorded about their origins and their language.

The only defense is to attack us - they claim we are not Greeks, that our land is not our land, that our history is not our history. They use false "scientific" research to prove their claims i.e. the FYROM "research" that was totally discredited "proving" that our DNA shows that we originated from north Africa.

We show them too much respect by even discussing their ridiculous claims.

Note the method most of these posters use : they make a claim, usually without evidence or with links to websites that are not reliable and objective, when, in answer, someone posts facts and reliable research they either don't answer at all or they post some infantile slogan.

I don't believe it does any good and that we are just wasting our time when we present arguments full of what evidence is available. They probably don't even go to the trouble of reading past the first few sentences anyway.

Effie

[gmellos]

you are correct but I still will continue to show my case because eventually people on the outside will take notice!

[effie]

Originally Posted by gmellos

you are correct but I still will continue to show my case because eventually people on the outside will take notice!

I wish that were so, gmellos! The years have made me a cynic but we can only keep on trying.

Effie