Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians?

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

Originally Posted by paniskos

oups lets hope that nobody has the kargakos book for the "hellenikoteta ton arvaniton2 in his huge bookstore..just kidding

oh btw lets keep out info and reference about hellenic precense and influence through colonies and alleged protohellenic theorties in Illyria and share opinions about the ethnic Illyrians and the ethnic Albanians

yes I have it it in my HUGE STORE , had read it and I suggest to the people to go and buy and learn what is the origin of the Arvaniton and Albanians. The only that is against Karagakos is Dimou and his supporters(like Dimitras)

and as about your thread , again as usuall you didnt tell us any archaelogical or documentary evidence that connect the Albanians with the Illyrians

[Flipper]

I believe there is a connection between them. There was an Illyrian tribe called Albanoi back in the days so that name is not a random one.

But that's all. They have no connection to the Molossians or Epirus. Most of the nationalistic claims have absolutely no ground or evidence. I'm pretty annoyed on their latest claims on Epirus. Yes, the Chams were kicked out but there was a very good reason for it. If I take your land in an unproper way and make you my slave, then one day you will probably kick my ass big time. The epirotans did what the palestinians do but in a more effective way

[Leonatos]

Originally Posted by Flipper

I believe there is a connection between them. There was an Illyrian tribe called Albanoi back in the days so that name is not a random one.

i think you are wrong.
The name Arvanoi/Arvanites was GIVEN to them by the Byzantines just because these tribes lived in the Arvanon area.The Byzantine Greeks were font of using ancient names to describe modern nations.Thus Anna Komnene in Alexias used this name for the first time to describe the nomadic clans that lived there.
The real ethnonym of the Albanians,the one that they use themselves in their language,is Skipetari.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Leonatos

i think you are wrong.
The name Arvanoi/Arvanites was GIVEN to them by the Byzantines just because these tribes lived in the Arvanon area.The Byzantine Greeks were font of using ancient names to describe modern nations.Thus Anna Komnene in Alexias used this name for the first time to describe the nomadic clans that lived there.
The real ethnonym of the Albanians,the one that they use themselves in their language,is Skipetari.

Partly correct.. During the Byzantine era the term Albanians is mentioned for the first time.. but not for the population of Arvanon..
In Anna Komnene's Alexiad we see that the 'Albanians' and 'Arvanites' or to be exact, the "inhabitants bordering Arvanon" are desribed as separate people..

In book 6 we read:

as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus.

In book 7 we read:

When some small towns bordering on Arbanum fell into Bohemund's hands, their inhabitants, who were intimately acquainted with all the roads round Arbanum, came to him and explained the exact position of Devra and showed him the hidden paths.

So she actually indicates the difference between Albanians and the "natives of Dalmatia" and the "inhabitants of the villages bordering to Arbanon"


Of course there are other sources that indicate the difference.. like, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates in his ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, makes reference to the 'Albanoi' having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the 'Arbanitai' as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.

There is also Maximus Mazaris in his "Journey to Hades" (1415 AD) when describing the population of Peloponessos, describes the Abanians (refered to as Illyrians) and Arvanites as two totally different people.

Manuel Palaiologos in his Letters when discussing the Kladas revolt (Kladas and those that revolted were considered Arvanites) mentions that the "Illyrians" aka Albanians did not revolt..

Simon Fitzsimons in his ‘Itinerary’ written 1322 during his journey to Jerusalem mentions that the south of the region now known as Albania was populated by a mixture of non-Albanian people (among them the Hellines[ could he be talking about Arvanites?] that wore distinctive white hats) and that the region had only then received an Albanian influx by invading Albanians fleeing from Slavic domination in the region of Rascia ..

so whats your own opinion, is it by any chance that they showed up from Caucasus (the farer the better, isnt that right?) , a theory made up just to piss off the Albanians?

Made up just to piss Albanians off Under no condition is it made up..
Here's a quoted text from Robert Elsie's site.. Note that Robert Elsie is considered THE authority on Albanian history..

1038, 1042, 1078
Michael Attaleiates:
The First Byzantine References

Michael Attaleiates was a Byzantine lawyer and historian who rose to high office under the emperors Romanus IV (r. 1067-1071) and Michael VII (r. 1071-1078). His 'History', covering the years 1034-1079, is a largely eyewitnessed account of political and military events in the Byzantine Empire. It was during this period that the Byzantine Greeks first took note of the Albanians as a people.

When the Emperor Michael (1), who passed away in piety and whose home is known to have been the province of Paphlagonia, took up the sceptre of the Byzantine Empire, the Agarene (2) people in Sicily in the West were defeated by Byzantine naval and land forces.
And had not the well-known George Maniakes, who had been entrusted with the general command, been eliminated on the slanderous accusation that he was hungry for power, and had not the military command of the war been transferred to others, that large and renowned island, blessed with large cities knowing no lack of precious goods, would still be under Byzantine control. Now, however, jealousy has destroyed not only the man and his endeavours, but also that enormous undertaking (3). For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...

Constantine IX Monomachos (4) proved to be more benevolent on the imperial throne than his predecessor. He conveyed imperial honours and gifts to almost everyone with ambition, and delighted his subjects. Suddenly storm clouds gathered in the West and threatened him with nothing less than destruction and expulsion from the throne. The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities. He caused great turmoil in the rest of the army opposing him and took it over. After having set up his camp at a two days' march from Thessalonika, he made his attack on the imperial camp in the evening...

When this had taken place and the usurpers had gradually calmed down, another disaster began to take its course and to spread like a poisonous weed intent on destroying the crops. The danger came from the city of Epidamnus (Durrës). The Protoprohedros Duke Basiliakes, who had been sent there by the emperor, having succeeded in avoiding Bryennius and withdrawing from Adrianopole, took over Durrës and assembled an army there from all the surrounding regions. By soliciting support for his side by means of substantial gifts, he succeeded in having the Franks enter his territory from Italy and attempted to make use of them for his side. By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika...

(1) Michael IV (r. 1034-1041).
(2) i.e. the Arabs.
(3) i.e. the recapture of Sicily in 1038-1040.
(4) Constantine IX (r. 1042-1055).

[Extracts from: Michaelis Attaliotae: Historia, Bonn 1853, p. 8, 18, 297. Translated by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 4-5.]

Then again... we could look into this quote which indicates that the origin from Caucasus theory existed prior to the formation of Albania :

The Albanians
Henry Skene
Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856), Vol. 2. (1850).

Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856) is currently published by Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland

The Albanians are divided into four tribes. These are, the Gheghides and Mirdites, the Toskides, the Tsamides, and the Liapides...............


-------------The Toskides are the most handsome of the Albanians. They have noble features, with fair hair and blue eyes, indicating the mixture of Georgian blood, which probably flows in their veins : less warlike than their countrymen of the other tribes, their stature is also less Herculean. They are supposed to have derived their name from the Toxidse, mentioned by Chardin as inhabiting Mingrelia.

The country now occupied by this tribe lies to the south of that of the Ghegs and Mirdites, and extends to the river Vojutza. It is called by themselves Toskouria. Their chief places are Elbassan and Berat, called by the Turks Arnaout Belgrad, in order to distinguish it from Belgrade on the Danube. Te-pellene, the birth-place of Ali Pasha, is now included in their territory, although it was formerly considered as belonging to the infamous Liapides. The great despot declared it, how¬ever, to be in Toskouria. and no one dared to gainsay him on a point which affected the respectability of his origin. The women of the Toske tribe are remarkable for their beauty, like those of Georgia, whence they issue, according to the conjecture of some antiquaries.


............................. In their own language they call themselves Skipetar, which name bears some affinity with that of of the Skitekip, mentioned by the Armenian geographers as inhabiting a territory near the Caspian.

By the way.. whats wrong with Kargakos' "Αλβανοί-Αρβανίτες-Έλληνες" ??

[akritas]

Author John Wilkes (The Illyrians,page 219 ) argued against Illyrian-Albanian theory:

"In the matter of physical character, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m, female 1.53). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians"

Also there is a gap of several centuries between the last historical mention of Illyrians (and the Illyrian tribe Albanoi) and the later mention of Albanians and of the names Albanon and Arbanon to indicate the region.

The lack of sources about the connection between the Illyrians and the Albanians can not be taken as proof that the former are ancestors of the latter.

The Albanians appeared for the first time in the 11th century.Prior to this date there is no source mentioning their presence in the region despite the fact that in the region of modern day Albania there was one of the largest Byzantine cities,Dyrrachium.So,why didn't the Byzantines notice their presence prior to the 11th century,if the Albanian were always there on the mountains of Albania?

The Byzantines had a clear knowledge of the people who were living inside the boundaries of the empire,and outside as well.
One could say that the Albanians are descendants of a migratory people that settled in the region during the Dark Ages,when the byzantine authorities had no control over the northern Balkans(6th century).

On the other hand some late Byzantine sources clearly mention the Albanians sometimes as Illyrians.At the same time the scholars used ancient names to describe modern people,they called the Bulgarians as Scythians,the turks as Persians etc.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by paniskos

what about sources revealing an ancerstry of non Illyrian people?

Where are the sources that do ???

Anyway, there's the little issue of Albanian language being totally alien to Illyrian (based on the Messapic inscriptions found)

Here's what some linguists have concluded:

*. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

*. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

*. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

*. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

*.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

thats doesnt mean much...lets think of the name hellen with an ethnical use

This means what exactly ????
The term Hellin may have been persecuted and connected to pagan worship.. but it was never forgotten.. You see those that banned it were the very same that kept it alive.. Every Orthodox Sunday they heard and still do.. damnations (αναθεμα τρις) against pagan teachings, the Hellinic name and all that represents..

but thats just a speculation...and well we are talking about the today Albania region and the surrounding where ancient Illyrians lived and at least some part of it was within the byz control, isnt that right?

And ???
The theory of their connection is also a speculation.. The difference is that the first (non-Illyrian) has some facts that are very hard to refute..

I still dont see the Caucasian theory being near to logic, it seems to me its something like the Slav theory or the Greek descend and always made me very suspicious

Whats this "Greek descend" you're talking about ???

--OH if what u say was true, it could be easily confirmed with a linguistic comparison or a genetical research with the people who currently live on those areas from which the albs allegely come from
Is there any? I would expect it to be available everywhere

Well genetics is tricky.. it indicates part of your ancestry but it doesn't define when and where you got it..
As for linguistics.. beside what is mentioned just above.. add the following:

The Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.
The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". see:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA

Some other notes...

Just a few, of the many identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:

Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekoul

When we look at apostle Bartholomew's life, we find he labored in the area around the south end of the Caspian Sea, in the section that was then called Armenia.
The modern name of the district where he died is Azerbaijan and the place of his death, called in New Testament times Albanopolis, is now Derbend which is on the west coast of the Caspian Sea.

Out of a list of 40-50 Illyrian city names known to us only 2-5 of the Albanian city names can be connected to them.

There is no historic memory of the Illyrian past in the Albanian cultural heritage.

Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, they indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.

erm I had several Alb pals and in two occasions girlfriends and from what I see their skin is much more white than the average Greek!
In fact my skin is amongst the whitest that can be found in Greece and in several occasions the Albanians have more white skin than mine!

And this proves what exactly ??? well other that you need to get out more and enjoy the sun...

Carleton Coon has stated that skin should only be examined from parts that are not exposed to sunlight. He specifically stated that skin from the underarm may be as much as 10 shades lighter than the exposed parts of the body..

N. Jablonski and G. Chaplin in the Journal of Human Evolution (2000) proved that :

variations in skin color are adaptive, and are related to the regulation of ultraviolet (UV) radiation penetration.... Skin coloration in humans is adaptive and labile. Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution. Because of this, skin coloration is of no value in determining phylogenetic relationships among modern human groups."

also that dscription contradicts OH quote of another source:

No not really because he's talking about the Toskides..

maybe he had in mind any muzl Albanian group who were turks in descend or any roma group?

No not really.. the population of Albania varies in anthropologic terms.. this is why you can find all types.. But he may be basing his statement of the Mirdites (Albanian clan) who were reknowned for marrying only with Turkish women after having them baptized..