How greek is thrace through history?

[vlakas]

Ok since i am thracian (by todays meaning) kinda hard to consider yourself something that goes back so far , i consider myself as greek as any greek and im a patriot (not a nationalist) i am originally from the black sea in what is today bulgaria.

From what i know from the little i have read thrace has had contact with greeks from alot earlier since it was hellenised by Macedonia since almost every known thracian we know is known in greek history or have very greek names , wasnt Pericles mother thracian? Their coulture was similar to greek in some aspects , thrace remained under greek control for thousands of years etc. i dont want to go into details since i dont know to much

but heres the thing lately i have come across bulgarians romanians and even turks claiming the thracian people and ill be honest it kinda pisses me off.

so i wanted to discuss the greekness of thrace through history in this thread.

[vlakas]

oh by the way wrong forum can some admin move this to history?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by vlakas

Ok since i am thracian (by todays meaning) kinda hard to consider yourself something that goes back so far , i consider myself as greek as any greek and im a patriot (not a nationalist) i am originally from the black sea in what is today bulgaria.

From what i know from the little i have read thrace has had contact with greeks from alot earlier since it was hellenised by Macedonia since almost every known thracian we know is known in greek history or have very greek names , wasnt Pericles mother thracian? Their coulture was similar to greek in some aspects , thrace remained under greek control for thousands of years etc. i dont want to go into details since i dont know to much

but heres the thing lately i have come across bulgarians romanians and even turks claiming the thracian people and ill be honest it kinda pisses me off.

so i wanted to discuss the greekness of thrace through history in this thread.

Here we can talk about Thrace my friend !!!

No Perikles mother no she was Athenean ...but
Cimones mother (Miltiades wife , a Thracian princess), Themistokles mother , Demosthenes mother , Antisthenes mother they were Thracians.

By the city Abdera during clasic times we have culture personalilies like the great Presocratic philosopher Demokritus and the Sophist Protagoras.

Thrakes were originaly a non-greek tribe and Xenophanes back in 500 BC stated that they were «Θρῇκὲς τε γλαυκοὺς καὶ πυρροὺς» , Thracians blue eyed and red/blonded hair...
The Ancient Thracian language is a Satem Indoeuropean language and that means that Thracians came to the region before the Greeks . Greek language is a Centum one.
Thracians did a great favor to the ancient Greeks since they mostly (by Cimmerian Help) have managed to cause the retreat of the Illyrians , after 800BC. To understand the importance of that one must understand the size of Illyrian expansion from 1000-800 BC. They were settled all over Macedonia , West Thrace (Amphipolis) , Thessaly (Alo)and Illyrian tombs have been also found in the Peloponnesian Achaea. The Thracian counter attack helped greeks reobtain some of their old teritories and repeled the Illyrians to their storical region.

Long before Philip "Hellenized the Thracians" ...the Ionians had colonized the Thracian coast and made cities like Abdera , Dikaia , Maronea , all the cities in Propontis etc..By that interaction (750 BC) Thracians were already began to Hellenize themselves and there was a great income of Greeks in that coasts, so when Philip arrived the work had already began..

During Hellenistic period there was a massive Greek colonization of continental Thrace (today's Greek-Thrace's continental Part).
After Alexander's the Great death Thrace became the Reign of Lysimachus.

During Roman times the Thracian tribes were divided. The northern ones became Romanized (latin speaking Romanians for examlpe) , meanwile the southern ones continued their already advanced hellenization.

When Constantinopolis was founded , that brought the Center of civilization in Eastern Thrace ..and after Con/poli the second Greek Byzantine metropolis was Thessaloniki ...so being among the two greek byzantine centers , helped them to acquire a TOTALY GREEK IDENTITY....and that is the new greek-christian identity and this means that from the Byzantine period and later on south Thrace (todays Greek Thrace) was simply a Greek Region among all the others.
..One definition that I love is that of Paola Philipson's : "a nation is the historical vehicle of the culture that it rapresents" ...so it's not about who enters and who goes out , it's about WHAT CULTURE DO YOU CARRY ...and the Thracians for about 2500 years carry the Greek culture with pride , I hope ...
If it interests you the origin of the Ancient Greek Population ...see the thread
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...er-greeks.html
By that you will see that there is not a pure greek nation , and will understand why the identity's importance stands on what culture do you carry...For every question ..ask me and I will reply ...OK ??
Welcome to the forum ...

[Andrew]

If you're interested about ancient Thracians more ..there is what Herodotus says (Book 5):

3. Now the Thracian race is the most numerous, except the Indians, in all the world: and if it should come to be ruled over by one man, or to agree together in one, it would be irresistible in fight and the strongest by far of all nations, in my opinion. Since however this is impossible for them and cannot ever come to pass among them, they are in fact weak for that reason. They have many names, belonging to their various tribes in different places; but they all follow customs which are nearly the same in all respects, except the Getai and Trausians and those who dwell above the Crestonians. 3. [1] Θρηίκων δὲ ἔθνος μέγιστον ἐστὶ μετά γε Ἰνδοὺς πάντων ἀνθρώπων· εἰ δὲ ὑπ᾽ ἑνὸς ἄρχοιτο ἢ φρονέοι κατὰ τὠυτό, ἄμαχόν τ᾽ ἂν εἴη καὶ πολλῷ κράτιστον πάντων ἐθνέων κατὰ γνώμην τὴν ἐμήν. ἀλλὰ γὰρ τοῦτο ἄπορόν σφι καὶ ἀμήχανον μή κοτε ἐγγένηται, εἰσὶ δὴ κατὰ τοῦτο ἀσθενέες. [2] οὐνόματα δ᾽ ἔχουσι πολλὰ κατὰ χώρας ἕκαστοι, νόμοισι δὲ οὗτοι παραπλησίοισι πάντες χρέωνται κατὰ πάντα, πλὴν Γετέων καὶ Τραυσῶν καὶ τῶν κατύπερθε Κρηστωναίων οἰκεόντων.

4. Of these the practices of the Getai, who believe themselves to be immortal, have been spoken of by me already: and the Trausians perform everything else in the same manner as the other Thracians, but in regard to those who are born and die among them they do as follows:--when a child has been born, the nearest of kin sit round it and make lamentation for all the evils of which he must fulfil the measure, now that he is born, enumerating the whole number of human ills; but when a man is dead, they cover him up in the earth with sport and rejoicing, saying at the same time from what great evils he has escaped and is now in perfect bliss. 4. [1] τούτων δὲ τὰ μὲν Γέται οἱ ἀθανατίζοντες ποιεῦσι, εἴρηταί μοι· Τραυσοὶ δὲ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα πάντα κατὰ ταὐτὰ τοῖσι ἄλλοισι Θρήιξι ἐπιτελέουσι, κατὰ δὲ τὸν γινόμενόν σφι καὶ ἀπογινόμενον ποιεῦσι τοιάδε· [2] τὸν μὲν γενόμενον περιιζόμενοι οἱ προσήκοντες ὀλοφύρονται, ὅσα μιν δεῖ ἐπείτε ἐγένετο ἀναπλῆσαι κακά, ἀνηγεόμενοι τὰ ἀνθρωπήια πάντα πάθεα· τὸν δ᾽ ἀπογενόμενον παίζοντές τε καὶ ἡδόμενοι γῇ κρύπτουσι, ἐπιλέγοντες ὅσων κακῶν ἐξαπαλλαχθεὶς ἐστὶ ἐν πάσῃ εὐδαιμονίῃ.

5. Those who dwell above the Crestonians do as follows:--each man has many wives, and when any man of them is dead, a great competition takes place among his wives, with much exertion on the part of their friends, about the question of which of them was most loved by their husband; and she who is preferred by the decision and so honoured, is first praised by both men and women, then her throat is cut over the tomb by her nearest of kin, and afterwards she is buried together with her husband; and the others are exceedingly grieved at it, for this is counted as the greatest reproach to them. 5. [1] οἱ δὲ κατύπερθε Κρηστωναίων ποιεῦσι τοιάδε. ἔχει γυναῖκας ἕκαστος πολλά,· ἐπεὰν ὦν τις αὐτῶν ἀποθάνῃ, κρίσις γίνεται μεγάλη τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ φίλων σπουδαὶ ἰσχυραὶ περὶ τοῦδε, ἥτις αὐτέων ἐφιλέετο μάλιστα ὑπὸ τοῦ ἀνδρός· ἣ δ᾽ ἂν κριθῇ καὶ τιμηθῇ, ἐγκωμιασθεῖσα ὑπό τε ἀνδρῶν καὶ γυναικῶν σφάζεται ἐς τὸν τάφον ὑπὸ τοῦ οἰκηιοτάτου ἑωυτῆς, σφαχθεῖσα δὲ συνθάπτεται τῷ ἀνδρί. αἱ δὲ ἄλλαι συμφορὴν μεγάλην ποιεῦνται· ὄνειδος γάρ σφι τοῦτο μέγιστον γίνεται.

6. Of the other Thracians the custom is to sell their children to be carried away out of the country; and over their maidens they do not keep watch, but allow them to have commerce with whatever men they please, but over their wives they keep very great watch; and they buy their wives for great sums of money from their parents. To be pricked with figures is accounted a mark of noble rank, and not to be so marked is a sign of low birth. Not to work is counted most honourable, and to be a worker of the soil is above all things dishonourable: to live on war and plunder is the most honourable thing. 6. [1] τῶν δὲ δὴ ἄλλων Θρηίκων ἐστὶ ὅδε νόμος· πωλεῦσι τὰ τέκνα ἐπ᾽ ἐξαγωγῇ, τὰς δὲ παρθένους οὐ φυλάσσουσι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐῶσι τοῖσι αὐταὶ βούλονται ἀνδράσι μίσγεσθαι· τὰς δὲ γυναῖκας ἰσχυρῶς φυλάσσουσι καὶ ὠνέονται τὰς γυναῖκας παρὰ τῶν γονέων χρημάτων μεγάλων. [2] καὶ τὸ μὲν ἐστίχθαι εὐγενὲς κέκριται, τὸ δὲ ἄστικτον ἀγεννές. ἀργὸν εἶναι κάλλιστον, γῆς δὲ ἐργάτην ἀτιμότατον· τὸ ζῆν ἀπὸ πολέμου καὶ ληιστύος κάλλιστον. οὗτοι μὲν σφέων οἱ ἐπιφανέστατοι νόμοι εἰσί.

7. These are their most remarkable customs; and of the gods they worship only Ares and Dionysos and Artemis. Their kings, however, apart from the rest of the people, worship Hermes more than all gods, and swear by him alone; and they say that they are descended from Hermes. 7. [1] θεοὺς δὲ σέβονται μούνους τούσδε, Ἄρεα καὶ Διόνυσον καὶ Ἄρτεμιν. οἱ δὲ βασιλέες αὐτῶν, πάρεξ τῶν ἄλλων πολιητέων, σέβονται Ἑρμέην μάλιστα θεῶν, καὶ ὀμνύουσι μοῦνον τοῦτον, καὶ λέγουσι γεγονέναι ἀπὸ Ἑρμέω ἑωυτούς.

8. The manner of burial for the rich among them is this:--for three days they expose the corpse to view, and they slay all kinds of victims and feast, having first made lamentation. Then they perform the burial rites, either consuming the body with fire or covering it up in the earth without burning; and afterwards when they have heaped up a mound they celebrate games with every kind of contest, in which reasonably the greatest prizes are assigned for single combat. This is the manner of burial among the Thracians.
8. [1] ταφαὶ δὲ τοῖσι εὐδαίμοσι αὐτῶν εἰσὶ αἵδε· τρεῖς μὲν ἡμέρας προτιθεῖσι τὸν νεκρόν, καὶ παντοῖα σφάξαντες ἱρήια εὐωχέονται, προκλαύσαντες πρῶτον· ἔπειτα δὲ θάπτουσι κατακαύσαντες ἢ ἄλλως γῇ κρύψαντες, χῶμα δὲ χέαντες ἀγῶνα τιθεῖσι παντοῖον, ἐν τῷ τὰ μέγιστα ἄεθλα τίθεται κατὰ λόγον μουνομαχίης. ταφαὶ μὲν δὴ Θρηίκων εἰσὶ αἵδε.

9. Of the region lying further on towards the North of this country no one can declare accurately who the men are who dwell in it; but the parts which lie immediately beyond the Ister are known to be uninhabited and vast in extent. The only men of whom I can hear who dwell beyond the Ister are those who are said to be called Sigynnai, and who use the Median fashion of dress. Their horses, it is said, have shaggy hair all over their bodies, as much as five fingers long; and these are small and flat-nosed and too weak to carry men, but when yoked in chariots they are very high-spirited; therefore the natives of the country drive chariots. The boundaries of this people extend, it is said, to the parts near the Enetoi, who live on the Adriatic; and people say that they are colonists from the Medes. In what way however these have come to be colonists from the Medes I am not able for my part to conceive, but everything is possible in the long course of ages. However that may be, the Ligurians who dwell in the region inland above Massalia call traders sigynnai, and the men of Cyprus give the same name to spears. 9. [1] τὸ δὲ πρὸς βορέω τῆς χώρης ἔτι ταύτης οὐδεὶς ἔχει φράσαι τὸ ἀτρεκὲς οἵτινες εἰσὶ ἄνθρωποι οἰκέοντες αὐτήν, ἀλλὰ τὰ πέρην ἤδη τοῦ Ἴστρου ἔρημος χώρη φαίνεται ἐοῦσα καὶ ἄπειρος. μούνους δὲ δύναμαι πυθέσθαι οἰκέοντας πέρην τοῦ Ἴστρου ἀνθρώπους τοῖσι οὔνομα εἶναι Σιγύννας, ἐσθῆτι δὲ χρεωμένους Μηδικῇ· [2] τοὺς δὲ ἵππους αὐτῶν εἶναι λασίους ἅπαν τὸ σῶμα ἐπὶ πέντε δακτύλους τὸ βάθος τῶν τριχῶν, μικροὺς δὲ καὶ σιμοὺς καὶ ἀδυνάτους ἄνδρας φέρειν, ζευγνυμένους δὲ ὑπ᾽ ἅρματα εἶναι ὀξυτάτους· ἁρματηλατέειν δὲ πρὸς ταῦτα τοὺς ἐπιχωρίους. κατήκειν δὲ τούτων τοὺς οὔρους ἀγχοῦ Ἐνετῶν τῶν ἐν τῷ Ἀδρίῃ. [3] εἶναι δὲ Μήδων σφέας ἀποίκους λέγουσι. ὅκως δὲ οὗτοι Μήδων ἄποικοι γεγόνασι, ἐγὼ μὲν οὐκ ἔχω ἐπιφράσασθαι, γένοιτο δ᾽ ἂν πᾶν ἐν τῷ μακρῷ χρόνῳ. Σιγύννας δ᾽ ὦν καλέουσι Δίγυες οἱ ἄνω ὑπὲρ Μασσαλίης οἰκέοντες τοὺς καπήλους, Κύπριοι δὲ τὰ δόρατα.

Also Homer defines Thraces western limit with river Axios in Iliad ,Rapsody 14:

"

Venus now went back into the house of Jove, while Juno darted down from the summits of Olympus. She passed over Pieria and fair Emathia, and went on and on till she came to the snowy ranges of the Thracian horsemen, over whose topmost crests she sped without ever setting foot to ground. When she came to Athos she went on over the, waves of the sea till she reached Lemnos, the city of noble Thoas."

If you are interested about the Thracian war tecnhnics ... the Thracians were the inventors of the "Peltasts" = javellin (ακοντιστές) with small shields named "Peltes" , much more light and quick than the heavy Phalanx ..that could "hit and move".."hit and move"..hard to catch. They were the favored mercenaries of the Greek cities like Athens and the Macedonians used them a lot as auxiliary units ...The Athenean general Iphikrates immitated then and made more light the Phalanx and with that formation he was the first to obtain a victory against the heavy Spartan phalanx with only light athenean peltastes.

[Andrew]

EPT ΟΠΤΙΚΟΑΚΟΥΣΤΙΚΟ ΑΡΧΕΙΟ

INTERESTING VIDEOS ABOUT ANCIENT THRACE IN GREEK LANGUAGE:

Ancient Thrace :
http://www.ert-archives.gr/wpasV2/pu...st=00:00:00:00

Philippoi:
http://www.ert-archives.gr/wpasV2/pu...st=00:00:00:00

Samothrake:
http://www.ert-archives.gr/wpasV2/pu...st=00:00:00:00

Abdera:
http://www.ert-archives.gr/wpasV2/pu...st=00:00:00:00

Xanthe:
http://www.ert-archives.gr/wpasV2/pu...st=00:00:00:00

[vlakas]

thanks for the info will keep me busy a while

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Andrew

The Ancient Thracian language is a Satem Indoeuropean language and that means that Thracians came to the region before the Greeks . Greek language is a Centum one.

Came to? where from?, where are the archeologic finds that would support a purely linguistic connection ?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Came to? where from?, where are the archeologic finds that would support a purely linguistic connection ?

I don't know if this from wikipedia helps , I must say that I have searced more the Macedonian history and prehistory so I show you what's in wiki ok
Orphic Hymn if you know something more please put it ...!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...html#post63946

If all that helps ..I'm glad ..I've only made the begining bros...


aaa..The following image shows the INDOEUROPEAN MIGRATIONS according to the "Kurgan hypothesis" of Marija Gimbutas . It is a theory not accepted by everybody , but it is the one that gave more answers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

[Orphic_Hymn]

My issue with this like several other theories is that there is scarce to no archeologic finds to support the "inavsion".. Like the above cultures show no similarities to what can be found here during the alleged timeline of alleged expansion and cultures like "Corded Ware" which some claim do show connections to Kurgan, are alien to what we find here..
Wouldn't it be logical to assume that if a common group of people started off from the same place, bearing the same culture, they'd influence those they invade with identical ideas/norms?.. then why don't we see this here? (not directed to you, just a general question)

Then we find genetics used in this theory... while some of the I think its 8-10% of R1a may indeed be dated to that alleged expansion, we simply can't overlook the fact that its generally carried by Slavs. So how do we totally exclude any possibility of later influx or Hellenizations of a people who we have not only written accounts of their existance but also archeologic finds to support it, yet attribute its existance to some invisible invaders some 5000yrs ago ? (again not directed to you, just a general question)

Anyway, while I know its the predominant theory and that there are literally loads of sources and scholars that support the linguistic connection I still haven't read anything that would make me accept the invasion part of theory hands down.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Here are some other threads that may help my friend.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...an-tribes.html

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...ed-thrace.html

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...-language.html