Ancient Thrace and Hellenized Thrace

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Paniskos, you did take my posts the wrong way. Yes, I do want to know, and I would think it is a very interested thing if true. Do not take part truths and turn them into something else please. Guess what, I am not even Greek, I am Canadian of Greek decent. I am as Anglo Saxon in many ways as I am Greek. LET ME STATE I COULNDN'T GIVE SHIT IF THACE IS GREEK OR NOT. TO BE HONEST, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T THINK IT IS, BUT WAS HELLENIZED. IN FACT, IF THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT NONE OF THESE CULTURES ARE GREEK THEN I WOULD NOT GIVE A SHIT. THAT INCLUDES MACEDONIA, EPIRUS, ATHENS, SPARTA, ETC....... ANY CLEARER EXPLANATION NEEDED? The evidence does show that those places were and are Greek and yes I am proud of it as it is my heritage. If you want the truth then dig. Archeological evidence and specific writings are amongst the best sources. I can't help the way you feel about things, but I can dicuss things amongst people here and bounce ideas. When the fcuk did that ever become goosestepping type nationalism that was alluded to? By the way, I have a degree in history so I am unsure how I became a goosestepping peasant. I always thought we were here to talk about ideas and support it with evidence, not to dump on each other.

Pardon me if I seemed aggresive here, but I do not deserve this. I honestly apologize if you take offence, but do not for pointing out this to all people, Greeks and non-Greeks who take this ridiculous road. I am not even angry or want to yell or anything like that, but I think I had to spell it out for those coming to these asinine and insidious conclusions. Funny though dude, I do agree with much of your jist, wanting evidence, etc... and not claiming everything to be Greek b/c that is complete horse shit. We can't just come out of no where and start dumping on people and that is not the way to guide people we may think have gone south. Nor is it the way to discuss ideas. I will also commend you on one other thing, Pankration most certainly does know his history and many many other things.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

This that I hate in the debates is the irony and the “supposing” or arbitraries explanations in the arguments of the others.

So dear paniskos…

I gave you simple examples of the Odryssian rules(archaelogical and documentaries).You didn’t realize what I am talked and what I was point out in my previous pots.So I will be more details for the last time....

With the annexation of Thrace to Macedon comes a distinct change in the nature of the archaeological sources. The tension created by rival Athenian and Macedonian claims for the possession of key sites disappears and with it a wealth of documentary evidence. This is compensated for by a series of inscriptions and archaeological and numismatic finds. In the planned city of Seuthopolis we have direct confirmation of the new Odrysian line founded by Seuthes III and ample evidence of urban sophistication on many levels.

There are three periods as Hammond, Archibald and several others mention....

-The Odryssian Rule evidence.I gave some ant I don’t have time to show you more evidence.Are enouph and you by-pass it.

-The Macedo-Thracian Rule evidence. The ninety-six Thasian amphora stamps include four signed Aristophanes), which are dated before the final quarter of the 4th century as Michel Debidour's outline (and still tentative) chronology.The earliest city stamps parallel those from the fill of the tumuli at Koprinka.

-The Hellenistic Rule evidence. Is known but as I see you rejected without argyments

The episode with the amabassador is obnious your ignorance as about the Xenophon and the documentaries. Xenophon describes a delegation of Parian ambassadors passing through the court of Seuthes II, equipped with presents intended for Amadokos and his wife, with whom the Parians were intending to make an alliance ( Anab. 7. 3. 16). Attempts were made to dissuade the ambassadors from going on inland and to persuade them to transfer their diplomatic efforts in Seuthes' direction. Xenophon had himself only just crossed over from Parion to Seuthes' territory. In fact there were ambassadors from other Greek cities also persent, so this cannot have been an unusual event.


Summirises I gave you
-archaeological facts (I forget of course intentionally the famous coinage evidence)
-documentaries facts(xenophon and you rejected as I see, is your opinion)

...and I want to show me your facts and not your comments in mine and dont irony please.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

You didnt give just not one evidence in order to support your claim...but

Originally Posted by paniskos

Maybe I m slow but I dont get what that has to do with the hellenisation of the ethnic thracians...

Is your previous post. Since when we have the modern term ""ethnic Thracians"" at the Classic and Archaic period ?

u want to see the facts of the non hellenisation? Its like asking somebody the facts that UFO dont exist
..I hope I dont look like a "smart ass" but I need evidence for such stuff and not simple naming the relations between the Odryssian rule and the Athenians or MAcedonians

Is not UFO as you said .We have facts.The Rominized inscriptions in Moesia, Dacia and in South Thrace the Greek ones.

You can check them in the below link

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscrip...arch_main.html

and finally for your informations the connections between the ProtoThracian and the Mucenaun culture is more close in the last decades because the excavations in Bulgaria. As you "know" in the 4th International Congress of Thracology (1984) was held in the Museum Boymans-van Beuningen(Holland) ""Thracians and Mycenaeans"" was the theme name for the symposium, which held discussions pertaining to the potential ethnic, cultural, religious, and linguistic interrelations between proto-Thracians and proto-Greeks (i.e.Mycenaes) It was believed that such interrelations had to exist since both groups have lived in the same geographic area in the past. According to Alexander Fol, the concept of "Mycenean Thrace" was first developed in 7Os in order to explain the relative cultural unity between the Thracians and the Myceneans.Do you know it? Do you want some names of the symosium?
Archaeologists

• Alexander Fol– Thracians and Mycenaeans: Methodology of the Parallelism
• D. F. Easton – Schliemann's Excavations at Troy
• Elizabeth French – Possible Northern Intrusions at Mycenae
• R. F. Hoddinott – Thracians, Myceneans, and the 'Trojan Question'

Of course also you "know" that the latter the Northern neigbours(Bulgarians) tried to take by theirs side in order to show in the world how close are in the ancient Thracians?

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I think we should all re-read the title of this thread. That should displell any nonsense as to what is going on. As for closing the thread, absolutely not at this point as I want to learn more about the Hellenization process and what happened to the Thracians. Once again, I state, as far as I am concerened the origianl Thracians were not Hellenes. If this thread becomes a battle where we nit pick semantics, then I will truly be disappointed. It is to discuss history and ideas. Akritas, once again, you have shown class in your dealings with people. To all our members, please discuss ideas based on archeologiacal evidence, primary and secondary sources. This thread will not be closed at this time!!!!

[akritas]

Philip you just meet one from the Greek that usually you can find in the Greek forums. Was a good debate, a debate that usually I had done to the past against Bulgarians and Romanians.
You can read from them the similar comments with the FYROMacedonians like ............."""we dont have find any Thracian inscription in the Classic and Hellenistic era but in the cities they talked Thracian.Was not Hellinized or Rominized"""!! .
Without any proof, just an arbitery conclusion.

[Euklid]

Just a comment:

I can understand Paniskos's thesis, as Hellenolagneia has become a trend within certain circles....and it certainly does not cater for our cause.

However Paniskos...with the exception of a few individuals...the environment of this forum and its attributes do not follow such patterns.

Concise...and accurate information is the main logo of this board...and thanks to Akritas and Ptolemy essentially it is a reality as well.

So, i suggest to Paniskos to be more moderate(even though i can see the tone, some might not want to and bottom line they don't have to) when addressing certain individuals but also to the forum members to moderate themselves when it comes down to accepting certain things as fact and then advertising them around as such for we do not want to become Fyromians now; or do we?

Edit: The title of this thread is very much in place...i am guessing that Paniskos believes that certain Greeks will mistranslate it and go around advertising it as "Thrace is Greek"...etc.

Regards.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Originally Posted by Euklid

So, i suggest to Paniskos to be more moderate(even though i can see the tone, some might not want to and bottom line they don't have to).

Please ellaborate Euklid. Thank you.

[Euklid]

There is not much to elaborate my friend.

Paniskos was very ironic and sarcastic...and some people got a bit pissed off(you inc. if am not mistaken).

The tone of Paniskos is a classic VP(Voreia Proasteia) tone.....those who live or deal with VP can distinguish it from km away...while yourself, Akritas or anybody else doesnt have to excuse him for such sarcasm.

Thats all am saying.