Map of Slavic expansion during the VI and VIIth century

[Christov]

Makedonec, if you mix 1 liter of water with 100gr of sugar, what will be the result? Dry or liquid mixture? The same is when you change the proportion. Do you see what I mean?

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Makedonec

nothing interesting about that, i know that the macedonians have part slavonic links, but that doesnt mean they dont have ancient macedonian ones too.
Im more interested to here about "the ancient greek charachter" of modern greece.

If I will accept that you have some ancient Macedonian connection what supposed to do with the Greeks that have alot -huge-big Macedonians ?
So your answer is not sustain.Actually that you beleive as a Slavonic nation that your ansectors are the ancient Macedonians seems and from a blind.

[Knez Nenad of Serbia]

Makedonec, if you mix 1 liter of water with 100gr of sugar, what will be the result? Dry or liquid mixture? The same is when you change the proportion. Do you see what I mean?

Very well put.

[Istor]

Blood is not related to ethnicity.

Tito, proved this for you SlavoSkopians, as we did with Slavs who came in Greece.

We could prove this to you if you give us full control of your education system for lets say 100 years.

[Christov]

Istor? Are you sure that the blood is not related with the ethnicity? If it is not the blood, than what is - self-consideration, consciousness? What about the janissaire? Where they ethnic Turks?

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Makedonec,
The arrows on Greece show what is well known: That for almost -2- centuries the Slavs, taking advantage of the Persian pressure on the Byazntines, managed to overrun the Byzantine army and settle in almost all the Balkans.

This does not mean that they obliterated ALL preceding inhabitants, Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians and Greeks. They simply managed to have the upper hand in an area that till then belonged to the Byzantines. But the big cities as Thessaloniki and Athens remained in Byzantine hands, as Chalkidiki, Attica and the Greek Islands.

After that came the Byzantine Reconquista, as described vividly by OSTROGORSKY in the "History of th Byzantine State". The Byzantines not only reconquered Greece, but they relentlessly chased or masscred the Slavs and brought Greeks from Asia Minor in order to have trusted subjects in the reconquered land.

The re-population of Greece was almost complete up to and including Western Macedonia. It was not complete in Central Macedonia, that was contested between Byzantines and Bulgarians.

The fact that the Greek vernacular of the 19th cent contained very few (less than 300 according to FLORIN CURTA) Slavic words, while containing almost 2000 Italian and Turkish ones, shows that the Slavs that remained in Greece and were subsequently assimilated were very few.

On the contrary, there are many placenames with Slavic roots in Greece. This is easily explained by the fact that, at those times, newcomers used to stick to the placenames they found in use in a certain place. The -2- cents Slavic presence in Greece left its stamp. The best paper on this issue is by VASSMER, "Die Slawen in Griechenland", Preusssische Akademie, 1941.

As for people of FYROM, I belive they are the mix of Slavic tribes of the 6th-7th cent and local tribes : Dardanians were the main inhabitants of the area according to N.G.L.HAMMOND. FYROM friendly people in Greece (e.g. Voskopoulos), born in Kastoria-Florina-Pella, may have a distant link with ancient Macedonians, who were actually living in these areas. The fact, on the other hand, that the "Makedonski Jazik", as is internatioanlly known the language used in FYROM, is "most closely related to Bulgarian", according to all available sources, and is a simplified(*) South Slavic language, shows the overwhelming part of Slavs in the mix with locals. Local Thracian language left its traces only in the fact that the article is placed BEHIND the name in modern Romanian, Bulgarian, "Macedonian", and Albanian.

As for Greeks, any attempt to say we are direct descendants of ancient Greeks is funny. Given the conditions in the Balkans, and in Europe in general, a link of 20-30% of modern Greeks to ancient Greeks is the best one can expect. The same holds for all Balkan people, by the way. The least connected with their name are the FYROM people who want to be called Macedonians on a blood connection basis with ancient Macedonians. This is really funny. Even Eugene Borza has explicitly said that. FYROM people may use the adjective Macedonian on purely geographical basis. Slav Macedonians is the best term describing them, and is used extensively in foreign encyclopedias, articles etc. The rebels of 1944 that sided with the Greek Communsits called themselves "Sloveni Makedonci"=Slav Macedonians.

Why today's FYROM people reject this name is completely incomprehensible to me : They are dening their granpas.
-------------------------------------------------
(*) Compared to Serbian or Slovenian

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

FYROM friendly people in Greece (e.g. Voskopoulos), born in Kastoria-Florina-Pella, may have a distant link with ancient Macedonians, who were actually living in these areas.

The people born in the forementioned places that have a negative attitude against FYROM ,considering to belong to the Greek race, may also have the same distant link with ancient Macedonians.
This, to avoid misunderstandings.
Unless if you count them in the 20-30% your are referring to.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by Amarantos

The people born in the forementioned places that have a negative attitude against FYROM ,considering to belong to the Greek race, may also have the same distant link with ancient Macedonians.
This, to avoid misunderstandings.

I absolutely agree !

Not only them, but ALL the indigenous Greeks in Macedonia, especially Central and Western, from Axios to the West, may sure have a racial connection with ancient Macedonians. Needless to say, the fact that they preserved their language is a token of that, much stronger than anyhting else !

My post was aimed towards the originis of modern FYROM people and their adherents. So, I did not mention the rest (the Greeks and the Slav-speaking Greeks) at all.

REMARK : Despite the fact that few ancient Macedonian words survived, recent developents (the curse tablet) proved that, at least from the 3rd cent b.C., ancient Macedonians spoke Greek, a northern dialect, but Greek.

[Cadmus]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

Makedonec,
The arrows on Greece show what is well known: That for almost -2- centuries the Slavs, taking advantage of the Persian pressure on the Byazntines, managed to overrun the Byzantine army and settle in almost all the Balkans.

This does not mean that they obliterated ALL preceding inhabitants, Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians and Greeks. They simply managed to have the upper hand in an area that till then belonged to the Byzantines. But the big cities as Thessaloniki and Athens remained in Byzantine hands, as Chalkidiki, Attica and the Greek Islands.

After that came the Byzantine Reconquista, as described vividly by OSTROGORSKY in the "History of th Byzantine State". The Byzantines not only reconquered Greece, but they relentlessly chased or masscred the Slavs and brought Greeks from Asia Minor in order to have trusted subjects in the reconquered land.

The re-population of Greece was almost complete up to and including Western Macedonia. It was not complete in Central Macedonia, that was contested between Byzantines and Bulgarians.

The fact that the Greek vernacular of the 19th cent contained very few (less than 300 according to FLORIN CURTA) Slavic words, while containing almost 2000 Italian and Turkish ones, shows that the Slavs that remained in Greece and were subsequently assimilated were very few.

On the contrary, there are many placenames with Slavic roots in Greece. This is easily explained by the fact that, at those times, newcomers used to stick to the placenames they found in use in a certain place. The -2- cents Slavic presence in Greece left its stamp. The best paper on this issue is by VASSMER, "Die Slawen in Griechenland", Preusssische Akademie, 1941.

As for people of FYROM, I belive they are the mix of Slavic tribes of the 6th-7th cent and local tribes : Dardanians were the main inhabitants of the area according to N.G.L.HAMMOND. FYROM friendly people in Greece (e.g. Voskopoulos), born in Kastoria-Florina-Pella, may have a distant link with ancient Macedonians, who were actually living in these areas. The fact, on the other hand, that the "Makedonski Jazik", as is internatioanlly known the language used in FYROM, is "most closely related to Bulgarian", according to all available sources, and is a simplified(*) South Slavic language, shows the overwhelming part of Slavs in the mix with locals. Local Thracian language left its traces only in the fact that the article is placed BEHIND the name in modern Romanian, Bulgarian, "Macedonian", and Albanian.

As for Greeks, any attempt to say we are direct descendants of ancient Greeks is funny. Given the conditions in the Balkans, and in Europe in general, a link of 20-30% of modern Greeks to ancient Greeks is the best one can expect. The same holds for all Balkan people, by the way. The least connected with their name are the FYROM people who want to be called Macedonians on a blood connection basis with ancient Macedonians. This is really funny. Even Eugene Borza has explicitly said that. FYROM people may use the adjective Macedonian on purely geographical basis. Slav Macedonians is the best term describing them, and is used extensively in foreign encyclopedias, articles etc. The rebels of 1944 that sided with the Greek Communsits called themselves "Sloveni Makedonci"=Slav Macedonians.

Why today's FYROM people reject this name is completely incomprehensible to me : They are dening their granpas.
-------------------------------------------------
(*) Compared to Serbian or Slovenian

Bessarion, to what extent do you believe the southern Fyromians especially from the Monastiri, Ohrid, Pelagonia areas have maintained their ancient roots or bloodlines?

It is possible that some remote living ancient inhabitants of those areas in not easy accessible places like mountain villages , did not mix to a great extend with the Slavic populace but forgot their language (same as ancient Greek macedonian had been forgotten)and adopted the slavic language in al the upcoming centuries till today..

From what i know is that there were some Slavis settlements in the Ohrid , Monastir area in the 7/8th c.A.D. but those small tribes to totally assimilate the indigiounous population seems rathe far fetched, i think the inhabitants of that area still carry some original signs of their ancient predecessors..

PS did the Byzantines relocate and reconquered the Monastiri Ohrid , Pelagonia areas as well as in the rest of Greece?

All the best,

[slavicwolf]

cadmus would you stop refering to ohrid as nonslavic your just making a fool of yourself.