What was the Ilinden ?

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by christov

Amarantos, how do you imagine those guys in XIXth century sitting somewhere and thinking: “shall we do a national or social revolution?” Come on! From our point of view nowadays is easy to make any analysis you want, but those times it was the one and only evil – the sultan. By the way has your nick something to do with “Amaranth”?

Christov,
back then they surely did not sit down to make philosophical discussions like “shall we do a national or social revolution?” as you say.The sultan yes he was the evil,but not because he was the "monarch" of the empire.He was "seen badly" because he represented the peak of the pyramid of a people with different traditions,culture,ways,religion... that was suppressing the Greek people.I think you are the one that watches the whole situation thru the eyes of the present,from the moment that you introduce a more contemporary view of the society,the socialist one.
For example there were fighters in the Revolution (as A.Diakos) that when they were captured,prefered to die instead of becoming muslims and high rank officers of the Ottoman army,something that in any case would have guaranteed to them a better life.But they always refused such proposals because they did not want to become traitors of their people.
Yes "amarantos" means Amaranth:α(un)-μαραινομαι(wither)-ανθος(flower)=unwithered,the flower that doesn't wither.

[Christov]

I know what literally Amaranth means. My question was about this: http://www.amaranth.org/

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by christov

I know what literally Amaranth means. My question was about this: http://www.amaranth.org/

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No way!!! Then Amarantos wouldn't be hanging in this forum...

[Amarantos]

Makedonec said

It was a Macedonian uprising. Most of the participants in the uprising were ethnic macedonians, the others were Vlachs and Bulgarofils (or bulgarians)

You speak of "ethnic macedonians",you speak of Bulgarofils (or bulgarians) that is "ethnic Bulgarians" and you are refering to VLACHS.The Vlachs what ethnicity did they have?Krusovo,Klisura and Nymfaio were villages were Greeks were living.And these are the ones that you call Vlachs.Or otherwise we should talk about "ethnic Vlachs" which means that a "vlach nation" exists too,beside the Greek one,the Bulgarian one and the fraudulent so called "macedonian nation".

1

...Bulgarians who had infiltrated VMRO with the intention of spreading bulgaria's territory into Macedonia once liberated.

2

What you people also fail to understand is that many of the VMRO insurgents felt macedonian (not bulgarian) but they believed that the only way for Macedonia to get freedom was through Bulgarian help, which is why they embraced the bulgarians in the VMRO (IMRO) as brothers, the macedonians thought that once macedonia is liberated, Bulgaria will help it against any ottoman or greek/serb attack.

So from the one side (1) you tell us that you and your people knew that the Bulgarians were "clever" enough to penetrate VMRO with the clear intention to spread the bulgarian territory,and on the other (2) you present your people being completely "naive" having all that wishful thinking EVEN WHEN the Bulgarians on 1885 illegally annexed by the Principality of Bulgaria the autonomous province of Eastern Rumelia,where for your information apart from the Bulgars also Greeks lived.It's capital was Filippoupoli (sounds greek to me),one of the various greek towns of the province.So with that "guilty" past of Bulgaria,you say that your people trusted on the Bulgars.It seems to me that they were rather confused then ,as you are now.

Greeks often speak of Tito as some sought of bad guy who "created macedonians and promoted steeling greek history"... but the truth is that Tito did not create anyone. He recognised the macedonians and the Macedonian state within Yugoslavia but he also preeched to yugoslav citizens the myth that they are "all the same people, southern slavs".

In fact,Tito was the one that gave politically flesh and bones to all that paranoia that initially worked in favour of the Bulgarians and later aimed to work in his favour and in favour of his communist country.That was communism dear,"all the same people,southern slavs" - "all the same people,Soviets" ,but you seem to have forgetten your past.

A macedonian is a macedonian and that is how the majority of R.Macedonia's citizens see it.

And this is the thing that you should take out of your minds.What is that "majority" precisely in the 2.000.000 of your country?Because in Greece there are 2.500.000 Macedonians(just like Peloponnesians,Epirotans...)that see the whole situation in a different way than yours.

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by christov

I know what literally Amaranth means. My question was about this: http://www.amaranth.org/

you thought it was my site or something like that?And what do you expect me to respond.You are not an interrogator,aren't you?Or some kind of "informer"(χαφιες) Anyway,was does this have to do with the Ilinden?

[Tchakalaroff]

Originally Posted by Amarantos

Man how do you make these smilies..
I love them

[Christov]

Amarantos, everyone who has seen the website of the Order of Amaranth understands that it can not be yours. It was my mistake; I should have asked by PM, for it is really out of topic. But calling me interrogator is unfair! Have a look at all messages of mine and you will see that I have the privilege of expressing my own opinion honestly with respect to the different one.

Back to the topic:

Originally Posted by Amarantos

I think you are the one that watches the whole situation thru the eyes of the present,from the moment that you introduce a more contemporary view of the society,the socialist one.

Don’t you see who uses qualifications as “socialistic”? Of course I have a contemporarily view on that event. Being alive today and being a normal human being as we all are, what other point of view should I have? It must be not so hard to understand that those times, when more than 95% of the population was illiterate, terms like “national” and “social” were understandable for a handful of people.

Why don’t you open an old map to see how many nations were under Ottoman slavery? What about them? Weren’t they suffering by the same oppressions? Or they were fighting for the European Soccer Cup?

I know there have been a lot of brave Greeks, who met the death refusing to become Muslims and traitors. And guess what – I admire them exactly as the Serbs, Bulgarians, Armenians, Rumanians, etc. for doing exactly the same. Otherwise we could have now a complete Muslim Balkans. Thanks God it’s not the case!
Using your own words I’ll tell it specially for you: the fight was not against the peak of the pyramid, but against the pyramid itself. Ilinden was one more attempt for freedom.

[Tchakalaroff]

Originally Posted by christov

Using your own words I’ll tell it specially for you: the fight was not against the peak of the pyramid, but against the pyramid itself. Ilinden was one more attempt for freedom.

Imenno taka..
Exactly like that..

And I would like to add one more thing....
Unlike te fight od the IMORO that was heard all accross the world (newspapers, articles)... Nobody was hearing about the fight of the Greek committee....

The Macedonian Greeks didn't make an uprising, because their condition wasn't as bad as the one of the Macedonian Slavs....

En contrare... Karavangelis' best friend was Hilmi Pasha..
You can see him here together before a attack on the komitadjis

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by Tchakalaroff

Nobody was hearing about the fight of the Greek committee....
The Macedonian Greeks didn't make an uprising, because their condition wasn't as bad as the one of the Macedonian Slavs....

The Macedonians=Greeks made Revolutions in various occasions against the Ottomans.On May 1821 in Mount Athos and Chalkidiki,on February 1822 in Naousa and later on.The reason why these Revolutions did not succeed was that they took place in locations near Constantinople,the centre of the Empire.Though the Macedonians succeeded in giving time to their brothers in southern Greece,by occupying the Ottoman forces.Events that took place long before the establishment of the committees from Bulgarians and from Greeks.

Originally Posted by Tchakalaroff

En contrare... Karavangelis' best friend was Hilmi Pasha..
You can see him here together before a attack on the komitadjis

This statement of yours is completely hilarious.As you know the Patriarch and the bishops continued to exist in the Ottoman Empire because they were a way to control the enslaved populations.They were a point of reference.That was the reason why when the people created problems to the Ottomans,the first to be executed,always in an exemplary way,were the priests.The ottomans went after Karavengelis head as well.In this photo do you see other Greeks?An orthodox priest that graces ottoman soldiers! The Turks put a knife in his neck,what other thing he could do if not to be present there.
I saw such a foolish statement another time in the past in a scene of that ridiculous film produced a couple of years ago in fyrom.You people try to take pride from things that are obviously fake.

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by christov

But calling me interrogator is unfair!

I was just kidding.Didn't have any intention to offend you.I used this symbol too " ",so as to avoid misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by christov

Don’t you see who uses qualifications as “socialistic”?

the use of "socialistic" was made so as to explain that there were Revolutions that had different signification.Not all revolutions are the same.Even today a military coup is called "revolution".

It must be not so hard to understand that those times, when more than 95% of the population was illiterate, terms like “national” and “social” were understandable for a handful of people.

And that is the reason why a modern Enlightment proceded the Greek revolution of 1821,when terms difficult to understand by common people became familiar to them.

Or they were fighting for the European Soccer Cup?

Did not understand that.

Using your own words I’ll tell it specially for you: the fight was not against the peak of the pyramid, but against the pyramid itself.

I wrote in my previous post "he represented the peak of the pyramid of a people with different traditions,culture,ways,religion... that was suppressing the Greek people.