What was the Ilinden ?

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by christov

What was Ilinden? It was a logical continuation of the Balkan liberation movements during the XIX century – Greece, Rumania, Serbia, Bulgaria. One of its’ highpoint – the Krushevo Republic, was the same as the Weimar Republic,the Great French revolution 1789 and so many other attempts for establishing a new form of governing, based on the ancient democratic principles (Hellenic, by the way). Let us not forget, the year of the uprising – 1903, East and South Thrace as well as the complete Macedonia were still part of the Ottoman Empire. It was badly organized, attempt for freedom.

I believe you are making confusion by confronting National Revolutions with Social ones.The Greek Revolution of 1821 for example,was a National Revolution with objective the freedom of a nation,the Greek one,from the Ottoman rule,from people with a different national identity.It was not a revolution aiming to the replacement of the Sultan by a democratic government.On the other side the French revolution of 1789 had a social character,it was a socialist one aiming to social justice in the frame of the same nation,the french one.
To my opinion the Ilinden uprising was just the socialist cloak of the bulgarian national ideology in the Balkans.From the moment that there were people that would never have accepted the bulgarian national idea,because they were feeling to belong to a different nation and that was something that the Bulgarians perceived,an other way to achieve their purpose(incorporate macedonia)was necessary so as to involve the total of the residents.

[Tchakalaroff]

As I have earlier stated my dear friends, i will always
enforce my statements with facts and arguments

Here you are... An article form the "London Times" from 1903...

it shows how Macedonian Bulgarians (aka Maecdonian Slavs) make
fierce battling with the turks...



Here we see who is fighting about what

Here is the whole article:

[Amarantos]

"...the potential success of the diabolical tactics of the Komitajis who are working for a general massacre of Macedonian Christians...."

"...Chakalaroff is committing his usual atrocities upon the Macedonian Musulmans ...."

"...3000 Macedonians from Bulgaria ..."

"...Greek peasants(= Macedonians from Greece ) were also killed in the Caza of Monastir and Ochrida..."

"...non of the Balkan States appear disposed to let Bulgaria to have matters all her own way..."

from the article is easy to understand that the term "Macedonian" has a purely geographical sense.It is not used to describe a Nation different than the Greek one or the Bulgarian.Otherwise one has to accept that Christians or Musulmans constitute Nations too.

[akritas]

You are right Amarantos.Clearly say Macedonians from Bulgaria.

Tchakalaroff what about the previous facts that showed by evidence the Bulgarian connection of the Illinden revolt and the mainly reasons of it as descibed by Dakin and Poulton.I shall remind you the known letters by the leaders of the Ilinden Uprising.
And one more think.Why Illinden leaders choosed a place that mainly inhibated from Vlachs and Greeks and not any other city? You have read it of course my comments for that. I didnt see you any comments by you

[Tsontos]

it shows how Macedonian Bulgarians (aka Maecdonian Slavs) make
fierce battling with the turks...

??? I thought you made it clear to me in the other thread that you are not a Bulgarian? But clearly this article refers to the slavs of macedonia, and the perpatrators of illinden, the VMRO as bulgarians. not once in the article is macedonia referred to in an ethnic sense.

explain yourself please

[Makedonec]

What was Ilinden?

It was a Macedonian uprising. Most of the participants in the uprising were ethnic macedonians, the others were Vlachs and Bulgarofils (or bulgarians) who had infiltrated VMRO with the intention of spreading bulgaria's territory into Macedonia once liberated. Gotse Delcev was definetly anti-bulgarian, whereas some insurgents like Hristo Tatarcev from Resen were Bulgarofils.

What you people also fail to understand is that many of the VMRO insurgents felt macedonian (not bulgarian) but they believed that the only way for Macedonia to get freedom was through Bulgarian help, which is why they embraced the bulgarians in the VMRO (IMRO) as brothers, the macedonians thought that once macedonia is liberated, Bulgaria will help it against any ottoman or greek/serb attack.

Someone asked why Krusevo was chosen (a city with majority Vlach population) this was because strategically it is situated on top of a mountain and it stood the best chance of been defended against an Ottoman attack.

Greeks often speak of Tito as some sought of bad guy who "created macedonians and promoted steeling greek history"... but the truth is that Tito did not create anyone. He recognised the macedonians and the Macedonian state within Yugoslavia but he also preeched to yugoslav citizens the myth that they are "all the same people, southern slavs".

It is infact Tito's propaganda which has led some 20-30% of the macedonians like Tchakalaroff to think that they are "slavs"... actually to me Tchakalaroff can never be a macedonian, since he dared to call Macedonia greek land and history. If he is a slav then he shouldnt call himself a macedonian. To me a macedonian cannot be a slav nor a greek nor a bulgarian nor a serb. A macedonian is a macedonian and that is how the majority of R.Macedonia's citizens see it.

Ive debated in the past with you guys, that yes slavs came to macedonia, but even your own maps show that the slavs also went to greece... this is a long topic and the debate will never end. You people will always find ways to question the existance of the macedonians, i think it would be great if you all built a bridge and get over yourselves, its the 21st century, dont you have somthing better to do than obsessing over somebody elses history? i guess you dont.

[Christov]

Makedonec, I know everyone is free to suffer as much as he wants, but be careful with Goce, please!

Amarantos, how do you imagine those guys in XIXth century sitting somewhere and thinking: “shall we do a national or social revolution?” Come on! From our point of view nowadays is easy to make any analysis you want, but those times it was the one and only evil – the sultan. By the way has your nick something to do with “Amaranth”?

[Makedonec]

Christov, when i said Goce Delcev was "anti-bulgarian" i didnt mean that he hated them, i mean he was against the bulgarian preeched propaganda regarding macedonia and that he himself felt macedonian, not bulgarian.

[Christov]

Makedonec, first look in the dictionary what "anti" means and than come again! And check your PM!

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by Makedonec

It is infact Tito's propaganda which has led some 20-30% of the macedonians like Tchakalaroff to think that they are "slavs"... actually to me Tchakalaroff can never be a macedonian, since he dared to call Macedonia greek land and history. If he is a slav then he shouldnt call himself a macedonian.

So, first you blame Greeks not to deny you call yourselves Macedonians and the you do the same thing against mr. Tchakalaroff ?

To me a macedonian cannot be a slav nor a greek nor a bulgarian nor a serb. A macedonian is a macedonian and that is how the majority of R.Macedonia's citizens see it.

I wish you could tell that to the Kings of Macedonia...However, my grandfathers family were Macedonians who moved to Bursa in Bythinia. They settled there as Macedonians. They spoke Greek and lived in a Greek village. So, you don't convince me. Besides you said "To me" which is subjective.

but even your own maps show that the slavs also went to greece... guess you dont.

You said it yourself...Slavs came to Greece.



A very good description of what actually happened back in the 7th century dear Makedonec can be found in the holy Mountain of Athos. There is a number of monasteries (both Greek and Slavic) that have thousands of books containing history records. You may reconsider what you said about Tchakalaroff if you do a trip there.