Dušan T. Bataković about the FYROMian question

[Grace]

"They now found the Greek more oppressive than the Turk. The American
missionaries had been expelled from the town at twenty-four hours'
notice. The school was closed. The Turkish troops had behaved well
in the town, and never entered a private house. The Greeks had shown
themselves as conquerors bent on pillage, and behaved with cruelty
and violence.

Colonel Condoulis did not even pretend to be out for anything but
wholesale annexation. He showed on a map frontiers which should
include even Tepeleni. I exclaimed, horrified: "But that is half
Albania!" Condoulis did not deny it. He merely said: "There is a
French proverb which says--appetite comes with eating. We have
eaten; now we must eat more and more." I replied: "Monsieur, those
that eat too much get bellyache." Which annoyed him.

I have met few things more repulsive than a military man bent on
conquest, for lust of conquest brings a man lower than the beasts.
The beasts eat for hunger. Condoulis wished to eat for sheer greed.
May the day come when such men will be looked On as mad dogs to be
destroyed painlessly before they have time to inflict misery upon
peoples."
still from the same book. http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenb...9669/19669.htm

Serbia choked....

[kostas68]

Why should we consider as unbiased Edith Durham,this ugly unorgasmic British butch:



who spend most of her life in Albania,probably because she found there what she couldn't find in her homeland and elsewhere:Someone to f... her.Although some could claim it's doubtful that this happened: <She was well received in the Albanian highlands and passed unmolested despite being a lone female traveller> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Durham
In the same article of wikipedia we read: <Rebecca West described Durham in Black Lamb and Grey Falcon as the sort of traveller who came back "with a pet Balkan people established in their hearts as suffering and innocent, eternally the massacree and never the massacrer." The distinguished historian R.W. Seton-Watson commented that "the fact is that while always denouncing 'Balkan mentality', she is herself exactly what she means by the word.>

As for the missionary Edwin E. Jacques,he isnt only an historian but his utterings are in reality considered a joke into scientific community while the only people in this planet seeming to take him seriously are albanian nationalists.This excerpt from his book is enough for conclusions:
<Many Albanians, who are descended from the Illyrians and Pelasgians, trace their roots to Achilles and other heroes of the siege of Troy, and claim Alexander the Great,who saved western civilization from the invading hordes of Persia(he is so ignorant of ancient history that he confuses Alexander's campaign with the Persian wars of 5th century),as their own.>

[Grace]

I thought I said to ignore the rest of Jacques, just the quotes. Yeah, everyone but the Greeks are lying. If you didn't have such imperial goals, why did you occupy that region every time you had a chance?

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Grace

I thought I said to ignore the rest of Jacques, just the quotes. Yeah, everyone but the Greeks are lying. If you didn't have such imperial goals, why did you occupy that region every time you had a chance?

EVEry country had imperial ambitions back then,so the better question is why couldnt you repel the GReeks every time(or even ONE time) you had a chance?

[TirAlb]

Hi everybody!

[quote]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Why should we consider as unbiased Edith Durham,this ugly unorgasmic British butch:



who spend most of her life in Albania,probably because she found there what she couldn't find in her homeland and elsewhere:Someone to f... her.Although some could claim it's doubtful that this happened:

By looking her photo i doubt, men were on her menu,of sexual preferences.But i hope for you,Byron didn't came in Grece for the same reasons you suggested about her.

<She was well received in the Albanian highlands and passed unmolested despite being a lone female traveller> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Durham

Thats because she was travelling in the Albanian highlands, regions famous for their hospitality.

In the same article of wikipedia we read: <Rebecca West described Durham in Black Lamb and Grey Falcon as the sort of traveller who came back "with a pet Balkan people established in their hearts as suffering and innocent, eternally the massacree and never the massacrer." The distinguished historian R.W. Seton-Watson commented that "the fact is that while always denouncing 'Balkan mentality', she is herself exactly what she means by the word.

How exactly are her writings related with some sort of Balkan mentality.If he means that she was a stubborn person than theres nothing wrong with it, maybe this is why the Balkans were so attractive for her. She is a reliable source.She saw a nation suffering under the turkish poor rule and at the mercy of four hungry neighbours,sympathy toward our people was justifiable.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

By looking her photo i doubt, men were on her menu,of sexual preferences.But i hope for you,Byron didn't came in Grece for the same reasons you suggested about her.

Watch out!Whatever you say may be used against you!Byron visited Albania as well.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Thats because she was travelling in the Albanian highlands, regions famous for their hospitality.

Com one now,TirAlb,whom are you trying to fool ?Yourself?I don't doubt about the Albanian hospitality,but if she looked like Elizabeth Hurley,i can't imagine that she could pass <unmolested> the Albanian highlands?(Don't accuse me for dirty imagination,i'm just a realist.)

Originally Posted by TirAlb

How exactly are her writings related with some sort of Balkan mentality.If he means that she was a stubborn person than theres nothing wrong with it, maybe this is why the Balkans were so attractive for her. She is a reliable source.

She is acussed by her compatriots for being biased in Albanians favor.It's something reasonable,i can't blaim her for this,but her reliability isn't bigger than someone who is of 100% Albanian origin.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

She saw a nation suffering under the turkish poor rule

Actually many of them weren't exactly suffering...i would say rather they participated in this rule.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

and at the mercy of four hungry neighbours,sympathy toward our people was justifiable.

Who was the fourth <hungry neighbor> ?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Watch out!Whatever you say may be used against you!Byron visited Albania as well.

...with Albania you mean Janina an sorroundings?!

Com one now,TirAlb,whom are you trying to fool ?Yourself?I don't doubt about the Albanian hospitality,but if she looked like Elizabeth Hurley,i can't imagine that she could pass <unmolested> the Albanian highlands?(Don't accuse me for dirty imagination,i'm just a realist.)

Well i don't know lets call Elisabeth Hurley and find a time machine, till then we have to consider only the Edith Durhams positive experince.

She is acussed by her compatriots for being biased in Albanians favor.It's something reasonable,i can't blaim her for this,but her reliability isn't bigger than someone who is of 100% Albanian origin.

Instead of quoting doubtful compatriots of her,writing their opinions thousands of miles away from the balkans,i would suggest you to read her book, based on her personal diary and studies made directly in Northern Albania.I can give you a link, if you want of course.

Actually many of them weren't exactly suffering...i would say rather they participated in this rule.

They were trying to make their lifes better and improve their personal conditions,being under a foreing rule was not a good reason to stop doing that,Greeks did the same. Btw Albanian suffered as any other balkan nation and during the years of Durhams visits, much more than the others.

Who was the fourth <hungry neighbor> ?

..hmm i have to know first, who are the other three you are thinking about.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

...with Albania you mean Janina an sorroundings?!.

No,i mean Tepelen,didn't he visit this town?

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Well i don't know lets call Elisabeth Hurley and find a time machine,

What's the need for a time machine?Why we don't try this <experiment> today?If we could convince Elizabeth off course.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

till then we have to consider only the Edith Durhams positive experince.?!.

Even an outcast in an island of Pacific who didn't see anyone woman for 20 years would be eager to molest Edith Durham,so i don't think it's fair to accept that she consists what we say <representative example>.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Instead of quoting doubtful compatriots of her,writing their opinions thousands of miles away from the balkans,i would suggest you to read her book, based on her personal diary and studies made directly in Northern Albania.I can give you a link, if you want of course.

You told it yourself,she was residing in Northern Albania and wrote about incidents in Southern Albania,relying only on the narrations of certain Albanians,without beeing an eyewitness herself.So her views were as much doubtful as those of her distant compatriots.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

They were trying to make their lifes better and improve their personal conditions,being under a foreing rule was not a good reason to stop doing that,Greeks did the same. Btw Albanian suffered as any other balkan nation and during the years of Durhams visits, much more than the others.

Yes,but many of them collaborated with this foreign rule and in many occassions helped this rule to oppress the other enslaved nations.Before accuse your <hungry neighbors> better bethink of your own faults.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

..hmm i have to know first, who are the other three you are thinking about.

Oh,i haven't any idea!Maybe you mean the Italians as fourth?

[TirAlb]

What's the need for a time machine?Why we don't try this <experiment> today?If we could convince Elizabeth off course.

I think she will problems to pass through even in the middle of Tirana.

You told it yourself,she was residing in Northern Albania and wrote about incidents in Southern Albania,relying only on the narrations of certain Albanians,without beeing an eyewitness herself.So her views were as much doubtful as those of her distant compatriots.

Who is talking about Greece? I thought we was speaking about the reability of her testimonys regarding Serbs and Albanians.

Yes,but many of them collaborated with this foreign rule and in many occassions helped this rule to oppress the other enslaved nations.Before accuse your <hungry neighbors> better bethink of your own faults.

Come on Costas spare me the Balkanian, official version of history.After 500 years its wasn't e foreign rule anymore, none collaborated, people were living inside that system for centuries they were part of it, Greeks icluded, and being better integrated then the others(Albanian case)was not a fault it was just cleverness.

Oh,i haven't any idea!Maybe you mean the Italians as fourth?

1 Montenegro
2 Serbia
3 Bulgaria
4 Greece

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I think she will problems to pass through even in the middle of Tirana.

O.K. I'll ask her next time we meet.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Come on Costas spare me the Balkanian, official version of history.After 500 years its wasn't e foreign rule anymore, none collaborated, people were living inside that system for centuries they were part of it, Greeks icluded, and being better integrated then the others(Albanian case)was not a fault it was just cleverness.

I don't disagree that some Greeks did the same,but you can't compare their number with this of the Albanians.For the vast majority of the Greek people it was a foreign rule,they didn't feel part of it and therefore they uprised against it and not only one time.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

1 Montenegro
2 Serbia
3 Bulgaria
4 Greece

Why you consider Montenegrins and Serbians separated people?You should also replace Greece with Italy.Albania was occupied 4 years by Italy,not by Greece.As for the advancing of the Greek army in Albanian soil during the Balkan wars,at least we had an excuse,the existence of Greek populations in a land that was still under Ottoman rule,the Albanian state didn't exist then.What excuse had the Italians?