Question on Language

[Robert]

Sorry again, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences admits that:

"...The writers in the IX century and the beginning of the Х century still do not call it "bulgarian" because they separate it from the language of the proto-Bulgarians (turkic-Bulgarians). That turkic language, while it is dying, it is not fully extinct...."


"Turkic languages - family of languages...

..... Bulgarian group (bulgarian, chuvash)..."

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=30

I don't know why you insist on denying something which is a fact. There is a original turkic bulgarian language which branched out into chuvash, tatar, bashkir etc. The "slavic" language in the Balkans learnt and used by the turkic Bulgarians and others who lived in Bulgaria was called "slavobulgarian" (one word) and then shortened to "bulgarian". That is a coined term, mostly by Greeks.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Robert, unless I misunderstood your post, you didn't answer Voulgaroktonos' post.

Now on another note, befrore tempers flare, lets slow down and not try to antogonize each other Robert. Let exchange ideas, thougths, interpretations, etc. We may find that we have much more in common than we thougth. Thanks for th info where you said the may argueably be "many" Greek words in your language. I did not know that. Thanks to Voulgaroktonos for originally bringing it up in this part of the thread. Now Robert, let talk. If there is any truth to there being any Macedonian blood in the tiny republic to the north, that only means we are related. Would you say there is any, or is it more Bulgarian, or other?

[akritas]

We can't read Bulgarian so we can't understand something that only you read Robert.
According Joshua Fishman(Handbook of language,Oxford University, pages 326,327) the Bulgarian was known as Old Slavonic or Old Bulgarian and was the basis of the other Slavic Languages.
Bulgarian language belong in the IE family and the Turkic in Altaic family.You can't compared them, they are not even belong in the same family.So , do you have any other source that support your claim(and your source)?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Robert

Sorry to disapoint you, but the Macedonian language is not a dialect of Bulgairan, nor does it have many "Greek" words (though "many" is debatable).

Bulgarian and FYROMian both belong to the South Slavic language group and one could easily suggest that they are nothing more than simple dialectal forms of the very same language since they are mutually intelligible..

Now as for Hellinic words in it, I can't really think of a single language that doesn't have a number of Hellinic words. Its actually ubsurd to claim otherwise when we know that medicinal and astrologic terms, scientific names..etc are all based on the Hellinic language.
The possibility of not having been influenced in one way or another is actually quite slim..

This fact has been acknowledged by hundreds of linguists in the past and at present, here including Bulgarian linguists and historiuans (such as Tsvetan Todorov for example).

An equal if not greater amount of liguists would state the exac opposite..

Bulgarian is a turkic language. In fact, a group of languages comprise the "Bulgarian group" including Chuvash and Tatar.

Bulgarian is a South Slavic language. What you are talking about is the extinct Bulgar language that was spoken by the 'proto-Bulgars' that arrived from C.Asia.

What you are refering to is a variation od the "Slavic" language called by Greeks "slavo-bulgrian" or "bulgarian" or some such nebulous term that was eventually adopted. The fact remains that the "slavo-bulgarian" language standard could not forced on the Macedonians and their Macedonian language in the 19the century, let alone today.

I am writing to bring you to reality from the collective denial you seem to be in, filled with unjustified rage (and fear?) because the Macedonians have dared exert their national consciousness. It is shameful that you call derisively your neighbours, the Macedonians, "Skopjians", and that you perpetuate lies and agressive behaviour against them. Istor knows all about it. ;-)

I just read the words "reality" and "denial" in one sentence..
Interesting indeed....

Where you get this 'forced on' is actually beyond me.
Reality and not the collective denial you strive to celebrate has proven that your 'language' was invented in the 1860's.. Even though at the same time your own FYROMians, like Parteni Zografski were promoting a common Bulgaro-FYROMian language..
This is a well recorded fact by your own Blaze Konesky and signed by your own "National Institute of History in Skopje".. Furthermore from the same author we learn that:

"In the sixties of the last century two answers were proposed to the question what was to be the medium of instruction in Macedonian schools and what, accordingly, were to be the text-books used.

1) The introduction of a language common to the Macedonians and Bulgars, a common language but such as would represent a compromise, a mean of Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects.

2) The introduction of a purely Macedonian language because the Macedonians are not Bulgars, but separate people."

As for the rest, like the audacious claim of us perpetuating lies and giving you derisive names.. It is obvious that you haven't gone through these threads, otherwise you would have seen several of your alleged 'truths' crumbling before your eyes..

But since you chose to use the word 'shamefull', I would like to know what exactly would you call the invention of the 'Alexander to Aristotle letter' or the promotion of the govermentally funded propaganda genetics paper, if not a total disgrace ???

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by Robert

Sorry again, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences admits that:

"...The writers in the IX century and the beginning of the Х century still do not call it "bulgarian" because they separate it from the language of the proto-Bulgarians (turkic-Bulgarians). That turkic language, while it is dying, it is not fully extinct...."


"Turkic languages - family of languages...

..... Bulgarian group (bulgarian, chuvash)..."

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=30

I don't know why you insist on denying something which is a fact. There is a original turkic bulgarian language which branched out into chuvash, tatar, bashkir etc. The "slavic" language in the Balkans learnt and used by the turkic Bulgarians and others who lived in Bulgaria was called "slavobulgarian" (one word) and then shortened to "bulgarian". That is a coined term, mostly by Greeks.

lol not too bright are we? Did you ever see me doubting that the proto-bulgarians were tataric in origin? The fact is that the proto-bulgarians were completley slavicised and now longer have a turkic language in any way shape or form as you claim.

hence why FYROM has as much turkic in your langauge as the Bulgarian langauge does. its the same dialect. considered mutually intelligble by all linguists including many from fyrom. poitning out the tataric origins of the proto-bulgars and trying to distance yourself from that past wont acheive a thing

[admin]

Originally Posted by Robert

Sorry to disapoint you, but the Macedonian language is not a dialect of Bulgairan, nor does it have many "Greek" words (though "many" is debatable).

This fact has been acknowledged by hundreds of linguists in the past and at present, here including Bulgarian linguists and historiuans (such as Tsvetan Todorov for example).

Bulgarian is a turkic language. In fact, a group of languages comprise the "Bulgarian group" including Chuvash and Tatar.

What you are refering to is a variation od the "Slavic" language called by Greeks "slavo-bulgrian" or "bulgarian" or some such nebulous term that was eventually adopted. The fact remains that the "slavo-bulgarian" language standard could not forced on the Macedonians and their Macedonian language in the 19the century, let alone today.

I am writing to bring you to reality from the collective denial you seem to be in, filled with unjustified rage (and fear?) because the Macedonians have dared exert their national consciousness. It is shameful that you call derisively your neighbours, the Macedonians, "Skopjians", and that you perpetuate lies and agressive behaviour against them. Istor knows all about it. ;-)

Welcome Robert!

It would be good to post proofs or evidence as most of our members do.
The fact is that Bulgarian is very very similar to Bulgarian. Changes have been made lately but a Bulgarian can easily talk to a "Macedonian" Slavic speaker.

[admin]

Sample sentences:

Bulgarian: Toj chranese naroda sas slovoto, onzi istinski chljab, kojto ukrepva sarcata, no v sastoto vreme toj ne zabravjase da chrani i telesno onezi, za koito vidja, ce imat nuzda ot takava chrana.

Macedonian: Toj go hranese narodot so slovoto, onoj vistinski leb sto gi ukrepuva srcata, no vo isto vreme toj ne zaboravase da gi hrani i telesno onie sto gledase oti imaat nuzda ot takva hrana.


The two sentences render the same original, which may be translated:
'He nourished the people with the word, that real bread which fortifies the heart, but at the same time he did not forget to nourish also with earthly food those who he realized needed such food'
A literal translation of the Bulgarian: 'He nourished people-the with words-the, that real bread, which fortifies hearts-the, but in same-the time he not forgot that [he] nourishes also physically those, about whom [he] saw, that [they] have need of such food.'
A literal translation of the Macedonian: 'He it nourished people-the with word-the, that real bread that them fortifies hearts-the, but at [the] same time he not forgot that [he] them nourishes also physically those that [he] looked/saw that [they] have need of such food'.


http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html


J.Henniger,
Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (1994), vol.1, p.429
Edited by R.E.Asher and J.M.Y.Simpson (Oxford, New York, Seoul and Tokyo: Pergamon Press).






I really cant see how much closer you can get to that....

[admin]

Check out this thread also:

Slavic Languages

[admin]

Information on Slavic Tribes and Their Languages

[admin]

Originally Posted by Robert

Sorry again, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences admits that:

"...The writers in the IX century and the beginning of the Х century still do not call it "bulgarian" because they separate it from the language of the proto-Bulgarians (turkic-Bulgarians). That turkic language, while it is dying, it is not fully extinct...."


"Turkic languages - family of languages...

..... Bulgarian group (bulgarian, chuvash)..."

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=30

I don't know why you insist on denying something which is a fact. There is a original turkic bulgarian language which branched out into chuvash, tatar, bashkir etc. The "slavic" language in the Balkans learnt and used by the turkic Bulgarians and others who lived in Bulgaria was called "slavobulgarian" (one word) and then shortened to "bulgarian". That is a coined term, mostly by Greeks.

Just because there are a few Turkish words in the language does it mean that we should classify it as Turkish? What you are saying goes against all of linguistics and history. Please post proof of "slavic-Macedonian" as a Turkish language.

"Owing to historical circumstances Bulgarian and Macedonian have acquired a large number of Turkish and Greek loan-words and loan-expressions."
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html

J.Henniger,
Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (1994), vol.1, p.429
Edited by R.E.Asher and J.M.Y.Simpson (Oxford, New York, Seoul and Tokyo: Pergamon Press).