Armenian, Vlach and Christian Turk migration to Balcans

[buden]

I see we like discussing Slavic migration across Europe. I am curious about people from the Caucasus region and Turkey migrating to the Southern Balkans. Can you tell me whether there is any influence of such people in, for example, Greece? I see quite a number of Greeks that bear atypical last names, such as Karamanlis, and it's really gnawing me on the inside to know the effects of the infamous trade of populations that took place in the beginning of last century. How did these people fit into Greek culture, how were they welcomed, accepted or rejected, educated? and so forth.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by buden

I see we like discussing Slavic migration across Europe. I am curious about people from the Caucasus region and Turkey migrating to the Southern Balkans. Can you tell me whether there is any influence of such people in, for example, Greece? I see quite a number of Greeks that bear atypical last names, such as Karamanlis, and it's really gnawing me on the inside to know the effects of the infamous trade of populations that took place in the beginning of last century. How did these people fit into Greek culture, how were they welcomed, accepted or rejected, educated? and so forth.

As I see, my dear, you use the term that the really infamous LUBI UZUNOFSKI uses in MAKNEWS Forum : "Christian Turks".

I used to write in this Forum under the alias ANDREAS SYGGROS and I was banned for the sole reason that I had the habit to corner them using considerate language and strictly adhering to the MAKNEWS Forum rules.

The term CHRISTIAN TURKS does not appear in international bibliography. It is a term improvised by FYROM propaganda, more specifically by FYROM people living in Australia and Canada. [ It is obvious their lives are monotonous there, and they try to find anything to stirr them up...]

Hence it is pejorative for Greeks, and I give you a small piece of advice : Do not use it again.

I also urge the Administrators NOT to ban you for that, just give you a warning.

Now, on the issue :

Not only Greeks have Turkish last names. In Romania, I have met a lot, most characteristic one having the name KARABASHU = KARA + BASH = Black Head.

In MAKNEWS the website belongs to Mr. UZUNOFSKI = UZUN + Slavic ending. UZUN = tall in Turkish. So, there are "macedonians" having Turkish names, too.

For your information, there were almost 2 mil Greeks in Asia Minor, as can be found in numerous books on the Ottoman Empire. These Greeks, most of them merchants and city duellers in general, were the wealthier part of the Ottoman society, together with Armenians and Jews. Greek names were the most difficult for the Turks to pronounce, so almost all Greeks from Turkey had two names : One in the Greek archives, held initially by the Church and after ca 1790 (after the Kioutchouk Kainardji Pact beween Imperial Russia and Ottomans) held by the Greek communities, and one in the Turkish "TAPU"= archives.

As for the "infamous trade of populations that took place in the beginning of last century", your pejorative expression naturally means the Great Population Exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923-24, after Greece was defeated in the Greco-Turkish War of 1920-1922.

During this population exchange, the total amount of Greeks that came back from their ancestral homes, dating 2500 years back, were 1.222.000, according to League of Nations data ( LoN had sent Amundsen, the famous Norwegian explorer, as head of a mission to accomodate the Greek refugees, who were one every fourth Greek : Greece before exchange pop 4.8 mil, plus 1.2 mil refugees = 6.0 mil ). Those Greeks in Asia Minor had 2500 schools dating back to 1790, when the Russo_Ottoman Pact gave the Greeks the right to have community schools and merchant ship protected by the Tsar. They were far from being "Christian Turks", as your propaganda feeds you. For your knowledge, the first Bulgarian elementary school was finded in Gabrovo in 1835.

From these 1.222.000 Greeks, about 58.000 came from Russia. They came from the coastal cities of Batumi, Sotchi and Sohumi in Georgia, and Novorosisk (harbor) and Yekaterinodar in Northern Caucasus. Many came from Crimea, where the mayor of Yalta in 1917 was a very rich Greek named FOUNTOUKIDES, known to the Russians as FONTOV [He died in Thessaloniki during WW_II]. Another source of immigrants was Odessa, where there was a 20.000 strong Greek community in 1914. Most of them were rich or well-to-do people, deprived of their assets by the Communists.

Today, there are still about 100.000 Greeks in Ukraina, in the Marioupol region, keeping the Greek tradistions etc. After the fall of Communism, they asked for Greek books, teachers etc.

There has been a genocide of Greeks in Russia by Stalin before and after WW_II . An estimeted 50.000-100.000 Greeks died in Gulag.

It is obvious you knew nothing about all this. For your knowledge, the FILIKI ETAIRIA =Society of Friends, that organaised the Greek Revolution of 1821, was founded by Greeks in Odessa. The house where the people were secretly convening is a tourist attraction today.

As for the Armenians you mention, a few of them actually fled to Greece, although they were not part of the exchange provisions. For humanitarian reasons, they were heartily accepted and given the same privilidges as Greeks. many of them immigrated abroad and in 1933, when the Armenian immigration abroad practically stopped, there were still about 25.000 Armenians in Greece. They still live here, they are about 35-45.000 today, they have their own Armenian Churches, state subsidised schools, even monuments commemorating the Armenian Genocide by the Ottomans in 1915. There is no problem at all with Armenians, they are treated as Greeks, and they never asked to be called minority, if you insinuate that.

Now what about the Vlachs ? There has been no Vlach immigration in Greece. Vlachs were indigenous people of Greece as elsewhere in the Balkans. before WW_II, most of them had a strong Greek national consciousness. Those do not feeling Greeks sided with the Fascist Italians during WW_II, were attacked and defeated by Greek guerrilas and fled to Romania at the end of the war. The remaining Vlachs in Greece are difficult to count due to intermarriage : They are at most 250.000

As for numbers of people who LEFT Greece :
Turks 519.000
Bulgars 98.000

The vast majority of the above were Macedonia residents.

From the Greeks who entered Greece :
650.000 were settled in Greek Macedonia.

That is why all foreign books say that this population exchange radically changed the face of Greek Macedonia, and instead of a multi-national area ["la salade macedoine" = the macedonian salad] it was made almost exclusively Greek.

[kostas68]

As for the Turkish surnames,Karamanlis isn't descending from Asia Minor despite his surname.I've seen also in your forums many of your compatriots considering him a <Grkoman>,as you call the Slavophone Greeks of Macedonia and some of them mentioning <his Macedonian mother that couldn't speak Greek> .The funny thing is that his mother is from...Myconos.His father was an indigenous Macedonian,a true Macedonian from a region where Greek was the only spoken language.I am descending from a similar Greek-speaking region of Macedonia,35-40 km from Karamanlis' native village.If you could visit ever his village you would ascertain what is the native language of the inhabitants.

http://www.protiserron.gr/proti_en.htm

[kzk842]

I can affirm that for the surname,the surname Karamanlis can be found also in north of Kozani's preference in a village of indogenous Hellenophone Macedonians.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by buden

I see we like discussing Slavic migration across Europe. I am curious about people from the Caucasus region and Turkey migrating to the Southern Balkans. Can you tell me whether there is any influence of such people in, for example, Greece? I see quite a number of Greeks that bear atypical last names, such as Karamanlis, and it's really gnawing me on the inside to know the effects of the infamous trade of populations that took place in the beginning of last century. How did these people fit into Greek culture, how were they welcomed, accepted or rejected, educated? and so forth.

Pls see above various answers.

Well, BUDEN, where are you ?

[Truth Bearer]

Buden has gone hiding under his bed as usual.......

[BzNzSBoomN]

1) Why hasnt the title of the thread been changed?
2) Why hasnt this Bud(ala)en been warned ?

As for atypical names, what a weak argument, do some research first before you type. Ever heard of people with the names Daskalovski , Zografovski, Trefilovski, Petrovski??? How about Muratovski , Karamacoski ?

Are these Atypical enough for you?? Or are the roots of these names some of those 'makedonski' words you claim that nobody around you uses!

[edessa]

first of all, how do we even know this lad is a skop? he doesn't seem to be taking any particular negative stance towards Greeks or anything, looks like he's just curious?
also, some skop names ive come across range from weird to downright funny...ie apostolovski, karafilovski, papadolovski, triandafilovski etc etc

[Slayer]

all surnames are mixed..what do you expect after 4-500 years of Ottoman rule?

Name me an African American with an African name

Most Australian Aborigines have Anglo names

Many Jews have Germanic/Russian/Anglo names

It only takes 2,3,4 generations for many Greeks in lands like Australia and the US to Abnglocise their name, does that mean when looking at their names in the future they would not have had Greek ancestry?

I must agree with Edessa, the guy seemed alright with his question and many of you jumped down his throat..Unless his post was altered by admin and I am missing something

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by Slayer

I must agree with Edessa, the guy seemed alright with his question and many of you jumped down his throat..Unless his post was altered by admin and I am missing something

Slayer,

I PARTLY agree with what you say, and therefore I have ommitted the stuff that I agree with.

But as for your above statement i.e. "...seemed alright with his question ":

One could be ignorant of who were the people who entered Greece after the population exchange of 1920-1924. So, e.g., I am ignorant of how many Induists left or entered Kashmir in 1946, or how many Moslem entered it.

But the adjective "infamous" he uses for the population exchange, and above all the use of the term "Christian Turks" about the Asia Minor Greeks that were settled in Greek Macedonia after the population exchange, points directly to FYROM propaganda. Just visite Maknews Forum to see a lot of articles in this sense, written by FYROM people.

Therefore the man should have been warned not to use such pejorative terms. I have been banned in MAKNEWS, despite adhering strictly to their rules and calling their country MACEDONIA and the people MACEDONIANS. The reason : I used to corner them using polite language. When they run out of arguements, they banned me !

And please point to me where I jumped down his throat : Warning and presenting arguements can hardly be called "throat jumping".