Linguistically: FYROM – from Bulgarian dialect to ‘Macedonian’ language

[pankration]

Nikos, I will not pretend to know what political games are being played between Greece and FYROM. I am sure that when you speak to people on the street you will always find someone who will express an opinion similar or dissimilar to yours. Neither really gives you an idea of what the political climate is. What I understand from ALL sources is that Greece has invested heavily in FYROM and without Greece FYROM would suffer greatly. As far as the university medical degree; PhiliptheUniter is right, many countries around the world do not recognize degrees from certain places. It may seem unfair but that's the way it is. I'm wondering why a woman from FYROM wants to practice medicine in Greece? This part of your post doesn't sound right. Comments?

New issue of www.fightingbest.com
Big news at www.pankration-novel-patrida.com

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by Nikos

Believe me, the story with the non-recognition of the Macedonian language is not so innocent.

There are many people in Greece who have studied in the University of Skopje and their diploma is not recognized in Greece.
The official excuse is that they have done their studies in a non-existing language.

Recently I was talking to a guy mariied to a woman from the city of Skopje. They are living in Greece.
His wife has studied Medicin in the University of Skopje, but she cannot practice her profession in Greece because her diploma in Medicine is not recognized in Greece due to the name dispute.

They have asked lawyers, politicians, experts, government officials etc and the answer was always identical: Her diploma will not be recognized in Greece as long as the name dispute persists because the Greek state considers that she has studied in a non existing language.

So this young lady has two choices:
a) Abolish her dreams and intentions to work as a doctor and focus on cleaning stairs in Greece.
b) She and her husband immigrate in order she is enabled to follow her career.

At the same time Greece recognizes diplomas acquired in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary where you practically buy the cources, and the higher amount you pay, the better score you take.

Therefore, each time you speak about non-existing language I want you to consider the consequences that this non-recognition has to people who live next door to us.
Right?

Niko, that is not a good reason to recognise a language. You know very well how things work with the educational system. Before someone enters a university abroad he or she has to check if it is recognised by the Greek state. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING NEW!!!

I have studied abroad and even though the level of math in Greece alongside with France and Germany is the highest in the world, I had to read "peace of cake" courses to get a specific degree and enter my desired university. I also spoke natively the language of that country but I had still to do courses with people that don't speak it at all. Even my teachers said it was complitely stupid, but that how it was. The country i studied in happens to have one of the greatest educational systems in the world, so as you see these things don't happen only in Greece.

So, since "pay and get diploma" works even in Italy and USA what makes you think that FYROM would be more honest with that than Bulgaria and Romania?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Axx re nikolaki...

Firstly in order to have your degree recognized you must (since 97') take exams in the Hellinic language, but this only in the case that the Uni. you followed your classes in is regonized by our state.
Now since we know that the Uni. of Skopje IS... you may go tell your imaginary friend to tell his wife and all the fools they allegedly talked to, to send a FAX here: 210 36 89 702,
Thats the number for the Πανεπιστημiο Αθηνων.. There she'll learn that the Uni. mentioned has a bilateral agreement with a number of Uni. worldwide and among them that of Skopje.. its called the "Σωκράτης - Έρασμος" programme and has been put into effect by the EU..

So claiming that the degree is not recognized due to its origin when we know that its a fact that there is a bilateral agreement between the two Uni's, is simply rediculous..

Furthermore, you seem to forget or intentionally avoid to acknowledge that your mentor Pavlos Voskopoulos, even though obtained his degree in Skopje, is a fully praticing architect in Hellas for several years..

[Christov]

You know, on the borders today there are some brochures of insurance and travel companies, full with some useful information for the travelers, whose aim of course is only and solely profit. You surely know them –mostly printed in A4 format, folded in 3, so that they can suit in every pocket. The curious thing is they are printed in “both languages” and in the whole text you can hardly find 2 or 3 words with more than a letter difference.

[Tsontos]

Been reading this book for a while. Very interesting analysis of a wide range of langauges. you guys might also be interested in its entries about the evolution of Ancient Greek to modern and Latin to the Romance languages as well. Heres the part about "Macedonian" (FYROMian) and Bulgarian, where is compares it to the Romanian/ Moldovan analogy and the interference of the Soviets. Sounds a very similar situation to "Macedonian", Bulgarian and unsuccesful attempts of the Yugoslavs to de-bulgarize the language:

Today's "Dialect" is Tommorow's "Language"

Not only has one of many hitherto unranked dialects often been anointed the standard, but we even see dialects actively dismissed as "quaint vernaculars" at point A only to be enshrined as inherently noble vehicles of humans' loftiest thoughts at point B, with nothing but a decisive geographical shift at the root of the mysterious change in perception.

The Romanian-speaking area extends Eastward into a little hump of land called Moldova, much of which for decades was incorporated within the Soviet Union. Moldovan is not just "close" to the Romanian dialects in Romania proper: it is very much one of them, not differing from the standard dialect any more than any Romanian nonstandard one does...The Soviets however, in a quest to discourage Moldovans from identifying with their Romance-speaking neighbours to the west, directly required Russian linguists to foster a conception of Moldovan as a "different lanaguage" from Romanian, exaggerating the import of the minor differences inevitable between dialects of any language. Many grammar books of "Moldovan" were little more than translations of Romanian-language Rommanian grammars into Russian. Now independent, the Moldovans continue to encourage a perception of "Moldovan" as a distinct "language" from Romanian, in part because Romanians tend to dismiss their dialect as sounding uneducated. Hence the Moldovan "language," fully intelligible with Romanian right next door...

...These [Swedish and Danish] are even closer than Standard German and Schwabisch or Standard Italian and Milanese...

I once asked two Bulgarians what Macedonian sounded like to them, and they said in unison, "Its a dialect of Bulgarian!" "Macedonian" is indeed so close to Bulgarian that Bulgarians crossing the border need make even less adjustment than Swedes make going to Denmark. Many Macedonians would find my Bulgarian freinds' comments a little irritating , which stems from the fact that "Macedonian" is considered a seperate "language" owing its speakers' distinct political and cultural identity from Bulgarians, reinforced by their incorporating until recently into the Yugoslavian federation.

-McWhorter, John, The Power of Babel, 2002, p69


I remember a skopjian on this forum claiming that he "was watching Bulgarian TV and couldnt understand a thing", yet this author points out that "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian" are closer than Standard Italian and Milanese



On the Serb influence historically encroaching to the North of Skopje:

Not only can Bulgarians understand Macedonians next door, but Macedonians on the border with Yugoslavia can communicate with Serbo-Croatian speakers on the other side...

-McWhorter, John, The Power of Babel, 2002, p83

[Tsontos]

Palmer and King on the de-Bulgarianisation of the FYROM dialects (Originally posted by Xiotis in another section of the forum)

It is reasonable to hold that, prior to World War II, the Slavs
of Yugoslav Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians [..]

The Yugoslav communist policy has encouraged the national consciousness of the Macedonian Slavs [..]

The encouragement and evolution of Macedonian culture has had a far greater and more permanent impact on Macedonian nationalism than has any other aspect of Yugoslav policy. While development of national music, films and the graphic arts has been encouraged in Macedonia, the greatest cultural effect has come from the creation of the Macedonian language and literature, the new Macedonian national interpretation of history, and the establishment of a Macedonian Orthodox Church....

Even those who claim that a seperate Macedonian language existed prior to 1945 admit that all these dialects have a very close affinity to Bulgarian...

It was natural that the Yugoslav government regarded a distinct Macedonian language as a bulwark against Bulgarian irredentism. At the same time, it was a very real concession to the Macedonians vis-a-vis the Serbs. The First Assembly of the ASNOM in August 1944 passed the resolution declaring Macedonian the republic's official language. A commission was created to determine which features of the spoken dialects were to be incorporated in the written language, and in May 1945 an alphabet was adopted by law...

From the very beginning, Macedonian linguists concentrated on showing the Macedonian language to be different from other languages. The first grammar, published in 1946, established nine distinctive traits of the new language and stressed its differences from other Slavic languages. At first the language had many words, especially political, literary, philosophical, and technical terms, which were borrowed from Bulgarian, Serbian and Russian. However, from the beginning an effort was made to purge these foreign elements, particularly those from Bulgarian. The commission which codified the language was guided by the principle:

The vocabulary of the literary language should be enriched with terms taken from all Macedonian dialects. New words should be created with living inflections of the folk speech. Borrowed words from other languages should be retained only where necessary.

As a result, Bulgarian, Russian (after 1948) and other foreign words were replaced by words existing in one of the local Macedonian dialects or by terms created by combining native elements....

The standardization of the new literary language has been a continuing process. But with its constant use in schools, the press, radio, books and theater, Macedonians have gradually come to understand and use the new language.

Reports on Macedonian acceptance of the language have varied greatly. A more realistic assessment comes from a Skopje schoolteacher who emigrated from Yugoslavia:

Among the wide massess of the urban population and intelligentsia, the Macedonian language is accepted as the most important, and often the only good aspect of the present day Yugoslavia. The children are learning it in schools and their parents are very satisfied that this is the case. There are places in the country side where people were reluctant to send their children to school in the days of old Yugoslavia, but now they do so willingly, for they want their children to learn the Macedonian language.. The new literature and poetry in the national language has aroused great interest, for through it is created and formed the new national spirit and language. This new literature, as well as the printing of prewar literature and poetry by Macedonians in the national language, has resulted in much reading.

Having been taught in schools and used extensively throughout the SRM for over twenty five years, the Macedonian language is accepted by most Macedonians....

Denial of the existence of the Macedonian language is considered so serious a challenge to the Macedonian nationality that Belgrade has not hesitated to condemn the Bulgarians regardless of the state of relations with Sofia. Vigorous and vehement denunciations of Bulgarian academicians have been published by leading Yugoslav newspapers even during periods of good relations with Bulgaria. The Yugoslav leaders thus acknowledge that the wide, if imperfect, usage of the Macedonian language is one of the most vital contributions to Macedonian nationalism.

The treatment of Macedonian history has the same primary goal as the creation of the Macedonian language- to de-Bulgarize the Macedonians and create a seperate national consciousness. Since Marx claimed to have discovered the immutable laws of history, Communists have considered the "correct" interpreation of history as the foundation of all social science and a key element of nationality. In the Balkans, history is a primary ingredient in the development of national consciousness which possesses a current relevance that extends beyond mere academic interest. Hence, the Yugoslav communists were most anxious to mold Macedonian history to fit their conception of Macedonian consciousness.

In setting the tone for the new interpration of history, Communist experts found past Macedonian history to suffer from two defects, First "bourgeois historians, although they may have certain merits for the elaboration of the material facts of history, suffer from the weakness of their idealistic theoretic basis." Hence, new historical works must be based on a correct Marxist-Leninist interpretation of history. Second, and perhaps mor important,
Macedonian history had to sever the umbilical cord to Bulgaria. It was advanced as a principle of Macedonian histography that key aspects of Macedonian culture had origins seperate from Bulgaria, that Macedonian history was distinctive from Bulgarian history.

Lazar Kolisevski gave the initial clues as to the correct interpretation of Macedonian history in his report to the First Congress of the CPM in 1948. The resolution adopted by the First Congress stressed the importance of ideological conformity and emphasized the use of history to re-educate the Macedonian massess:

Great interest should be created[in history] and there should be a systematic approach, with a materialistic elucidation of the historical past of our people in general, and special elaboration of the socialist movement in our country. The history of the people's liberation struggle should be particularly elaborated. A struggle should be carried out for systematic studies of our past among the broad massess as well as among party members.

Macedonian historians, however, apparently had some difficulty in adjusting to the new guidelines for Macedonian history- particularly in distinguishing Macedonian from Bulgarian history. In an article in Komunist in January 1950, Vidoe Smilevski gave a summary of the correct interpretation of Macedonian history. Another article by Kiro Miljovski appeared about the same time but went farther, specifically criticizing Macedonian historians and setting out in more detail the party guidelines for interpreting history. Miljovski was particularly crtitical of the failure to eliminate Bulgarian influences:

Some of our people fail to understand correctly Kuzman Sapkarov's cultural activity in the struggle of the Macedonian language, and they are suspicious about the national character of our entire early national movement simply because Sapkarov or others in the movement were not clearly, explicitly and to the very end nationally inclined, because some of them felt "now a Macedonian, now a Bulgarian." In the same way some people fall in to uncertainty about the Macedonian character of the national liberation movement in Delcev's time simply because Goce Delcev wrote in Bulgarian, because he did not say definitely that Macedonia is one nation and that Bulgaria is another.

To avoid future uncertainty, Miljovski listed a number of expressions (most of the frequently used in Bulgarian historical writing) which were banned from Macedonian history.

Although Macedonian historical works began to appear, historians found that research on Macedonia was "complex and difficult" because existing literature "is still permeated with Great Bulgarian spirit, with omissions distortions and falsifications of many historical facts." The Scientific Institute for National History of the Macedonian Nation was established "to eliminate the influece "of the Macedonian Scientific Institute in Sofia which during the interwar period "published most of the documentary and propaganda materials about Macedonia." The Institute, which had indeed published a great deal of material on Macedonia, was the principle scholarly advocate during the interwar period of the thesis that the Macedonian Slavs are Bulgarians...

In order to conform to the standards of Yugoslav Marxist
historiography and at the same time degrade Bulgarian influence and
affirm the Macedonian nationality, Macedonian historical writing
has stressed certain themes. In order to create a continuous
record of Macedonia as a nation, there is constant re-analysis and
rediscovery of probable and improbable historical fragments. The
medieval empire of Samuelo with its capital at Ohrid has been
designated as a "Macedonian" empire (despite the fact that
the empire was destroyed by Basil II who earned the title
"Bulgar slayer" for his campaigns against Samuelo). The "Slavic"
missionaries Cyril and Methodius are treated with greatest respect
and emphasis is placed on their Macedonian birthplace (Salonica)
and on their use of a "Macedonian" dialect as the first Slavic
literary language. Macedonian revolutionary heroes are carefully
treated. In addition to appropriating the historical legacies
of the key founders of the original IMRO-Goce Delcev, Damian Gruev
and Pere Tosev- Macedonian historians play up lesser figures who
might have given the slightest indication of "socialist"
inclination or who were not openly Bulgarophiles. Thus there is
glorification of men like Jane Sandasky, Dimo Hadzi-Dimov, Petar
Peparsev and Nikola Karev, who because they defected from
IMRO or lost out in internecine organizational fights, have long
been forgotten by chroniclers of the IMRO. Th more recent IMRO
leaders -Aleksandrov, Protogerov and Mihailov- are excluded from
the ranks of the progressive for having been tools of Sofia.
Besides, they are symbols which are too dangerous and too recent
to attempt to manipulate.


One of the most interesting aspects of Macedonian cultural life
was the struggle for the creation of an independent Macedonian
Orthodox Church. In the Balkan countries, one's religion is a
key element of nationality...

Probably the most crucial element in bringing about the
establishment of a seperate church at this time was the Bulgarian
denial of the existence of the Macedonian nationality. As
relations between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union declined
before April 1958, the Bulgarian government launched a strong
attack against Belgrade, publishing articles and speeches
to show that Macedonians are Bulgarians. The Bulgarian
campaign provoked vigorous countermeasures in Yugoslavia and
Kolisevski's speech in Titov Veles which gave a new slant to
Macedonian hitory. Macedonian National holidays on Aug 2
(Ilinden) and Oct 11 (the anniversary of the first Macedonian
partisan operations in 1941) were used as a major occasions
to reaffirm the Macedonian nationality. The conference to
create the Macedonian church came just two weeks after Dimitur
Ganev made the most anti-Yugoslav irredentist speech of any
postwar Bulgarian leader up to that time. When the existence
of the Macedonian nationality was being more serious challenged
than at any previous time, the creation of the Macedonian
Orthodox Church was a powerful way for the Yugoslavs to reaffirm
its seperate existence.

Because of the Bulgarian consciousness of a large part of the
Macedonian population, culture in Macedonia has been allowed
somewhat greater latitude than in other republics of Yugoslavia.
The cultural field ahs also contributed more to the development
of a Macedonian national consciousness than any other area.
After twenty-five years the major questions of Macedonian culture
have been resovled. The Macedonian literary language has
achieved a standard form generally accepted by the
Macedonian population; the premises an outline of the Macedonian
national interpretation of history have been worked out; the
Macedonian Orthodox Church has been established fully
independent of the Serbian church; graphic and performing arts
have utilized nationalistic themes though their direct
contribution to Macedonian consciousness has been more limited....

Since the Macedonian Slavs were now a nationality, the
Macedonians of Pirin and Aegean Macedonia should, it followed,
be united with their more numerous Yugoslav Macedonian brothers
and become part of the Macedonian Republic in the Yugoslav federal
state.

[Palmer & King, _Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian Question_,
1971, excerpts taken from Chapter 9 "The Encouragement of
Macedonian Culture", the first two paragraphs taken from pg 14,
the last paragraph taken from pg 117]

[MILA]

Hello,

The whole world knows 'Macedonian' is not fluently spoken Bulgaian...

The only 'proffs' who do not agree are in Serbia and maybe America or Canada...

As simple as that.....

Yet,it is true that the more you go towards Serbia the more you feel the serbian linguistic invasion....

All the best,

Mila

[Tsontos]

Within the last month I have visited about 10 large gangs of Bulgars working on the railroads. In some I have found not a single native of Bulgaria, and in some two to seven, the gangs averaging fifty men. To one who knows the lanaguage, there is no mistake in distinguishing. There is as much difference in speech and intonation as between Missouri and County Clare, though the Bulgarian of Bulgarian schools and Macedonia is the same.

Albert Sonnichsen, Confessions of a Macedonian bandit, 1909, p268

[akritas_gs]

Originally Posted by Nikos

Believe me, the story with the non-recognition of the Macedonian language is not so innocent.

There are many people in Greece who have studied in the University of Skopje and their diploma is not recognized in Greece.
The official excuse is that they have done their studies in a non-existing language.

Recently I was talking to a guy mariied to a woman from the city of Skopje. They are living in Greece.
His wife has studied Medicin in the University of Skopje, but she cannot practice her profession in Greece because her diploma in Medicine is not recognized in Greece due to the name dispute.

They have asked lawyers, politicians, experts, government officials etc and the answer was always identical: Her diploma will not be recognized in Greece as long as the name dispute persists because the Greek state considers that she has studied in a non existing language.

So this young lady has two choices:
a) Abolish her dreams and intentions to work as a doctor and focus on cleaning stairs in Greece.
b) She and her husband immigrate in order she is enabled to follow her career.

At the same time Greece recognizes diplomas acquired in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary where you practically buy the cources, and the higher amount you pay, the better score you take.

Therefore, each time you speak about non-existing language I want you to consider the consequences that this non-recognition has to people who live next door to us.
Right?

My dad is a vet and my mom is a midwife. They both studied at Soviet Uni's yet when they returned to Greece their diploma wasn't recognized and if it was they needed to redo some courses from the start. Now in the UK students who aren't british are not permitted to stay here and practice their profession (medicine). Greece doesn't recognize any diploma from Skopjie as the language is a non existed one. Its like saying Greece is not recognizing a diploma from Cyprus, when the specific uni in Cyprus had the course in "Kipriaka" . Kipriaka is a Greek dialect and it is not a language itself , now tell me considering the example above , how can Greece recognize that "Macedonia" language when it is a created dialect ?

[BG2007]

The so called "macedonian language" is undoubtfully a bulgarian dialect. A few words it shares with serbian which are not found on the rest of the bulgarian dialects doesnt make it serbian. Generally the closest language to bulgarian is serbian (include here croatian, bosnian which are practically the same language from a linguistic point of view) but you can never mistake serbian for bulgarian or viceversa because gramatically they are very different from each other. One is analytic (bulgarian) and the other one is synthetic (serbian). So every argument over the nature of the so called "macedonian language" can be only political but not scientific, because there is no place for a linguistic argument. I understand very well the "macedonian language" even after the strong serbian influence over it and even after the strong attempts to make it as distant as possible from the standartized bulgarian which uses as its base the central bulgarian dialects.

And dont be mistaken to think that the macedonian dialect is the most distant dialect from the bulgarian standart language, this is not the case. Bulgaria has many dialects (surprisingly many for such a small country) and some of them are so bizarre that I dont understand a thing. There are rhodope dialects that I need a translation to understand and still the people claim they speak a pure bulgarian language.

One thing I find interesting is how the macedonists position changed over time especially of those who are in Canada and Australia and have probably never been in FYROM or Bulgaria. At first they claimed that their language is so unique that has absolutely nothing to do with Bulgarian and they claimed that they cannot understand Bulgarian at all. Now they claim that we practically speak the same language but of course they say our language is macedonian and not bulgarian and that they "gave" it to us or we "stole" it from them. Some of them even claim that we are the same people but that all of us are brainwashed macedonians and that we should unite and call our country Macedonia... So there is some progress, atleast they no longer deny the obvious that we are one people, so the next step is to recognize the undisputable historical truth that we are Bulgarians and have been called like this for centuries.