Linguistically: FYROM – from Bulgarian dialect to ‘Macedonian’ language

[buden]

Hello. First post. Be nice, maybe we will foster some kind of friendship. Here goes nothing until the ban.

I would like to dispel several things relating to the initial article. Krste Petkov Misirkov is often quoted in propaganda material from Greek or Bulgarian origin, always disfavoring Macedonia and the true nature of his essay “За Македонцките Работи“(On Macedonian Matters). How many of you have read this essay? How many understand the core essence in it? Not too many, or perhaps none. That is simply because you are not the Macedonians to whom this essay was dedicated. To me as a Macedonian(or call me however you please, but I know exactly how I feel) that essay means the world because Misirkov touches upon the most unnerving problems that the Macedonians were facing a century ago.

As far as the Macedonian language being a Bulgarian dialect, that is just sad nonsense. Let's reverse the polarity of your argument. Simple incursion into your logic and, with utmost fairness to maintain justice, think of the obvious possibility of Macedonian language influencing Bulgarian, Sebian and so forth, as far as Kiril and Metodij went.

I can guarantee you with a liter of my own blood, *spits in palm, rubs neck* that I have spent most of my life in Macedonia than anywhere else and I KNOW very well who understands whose language. Bulgarians from the west, Pirin part, understand perhaps half of what Macedonians speak. To a Macedonian the rest of Bulgaria speaks a phantom language, we just have difficult time following. Serbia and for that matter any country to the left of it, have done their damage with that horrible Turbo Folk music that after the breakup of Yugoslavia was wildly enjoyed by the peasantry in Macedonia.
When Macedonians talk to Serbs or Bulgarians it all goes wrong, simply because we speak so very different dialects and they barely understand. It's different with written language, i need not elaborate on this.

In the Macedonian language we have lots and lots of words that are not present in Serbian or Bulgarian, words that don't have Latin or Greek origin. And of course, we believe that those words are purely Macedonian that stayed in the language from more than 2 thousand years ago.

You, Hellenes, use some Macedonian words also. It's impossible you don't. Somebody fill me in please, with what words do you greet someone on Easter, something something about Jesus resurrecting?

[4runner]

Originally Posted by buden

Bulgarians from the west, Pirin part, understand perhaps half of what Macedonians speak. To a Macedonian the rest of Bulgaria speaks a phantom language, we just have difficult time following.

Greeks from one side of Hellas can have difficulty understanding some of what is said by their countrymen on the other side of the nation due to the variations in dialect, yet they all speak the same language. What you have described above is no different. You are just speaking different dialects of the same core language.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by buden

I would like to dispel several things relating to the initial article. Krste Petkov Misirkov is often quoted in propaganda material from Greek or Bulgarian origin, always disfavoring Macedonia and the true nature of his essay “За Македонцките Работи“(On Macedonian Matters). How many of you have read this essay? How many understand the core essence in it? Not too many, or perhaps none. That is simply because you are not the Macedonians to whom this essay was dedicated. To me as a Macedonian(or call me however you please, but I know exactly how I feel) that essay means the world because Misirkov touches upon the most unnerving problems that the Macedonians were facing a century ago.

I've read some passages of Misirkov's “За Македонцките Работи“ (The <Holly book> of <MACEDONISM> )and i can say that even Misirkov himself,the <Apostle> of <Macedonism> admitts that your people called always themselves and their language Bulgarian :

It may be true that there was no Macedonian nation so far, and that nation may be created in time, especially in the current historic circumstances; it is true that Macedonians judged by their language cannot be neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, but are something distinct, i.e. they represent a distinct ethnographic unit, but how can we now name ourselves Macedonians and create a separate Macedonian nation, when we, our fathers, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers named ourselves Bulgarians? We can’t abandon that, since that name is holy to as much as our faith is.
Let’s see if this is so.
We named ourselves Bulgarians, as one man uses his name, let’s say Petar. Now the question is: who gave us that name, what did he want to determine with it, and what we understand as Bulgarian when we use that name?

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Mac...oing_so_now.3F
Misirkov's work is actually a repeated tiresome attempt to convince his fellow compatriots that despite the fact they always used the name <Bulgarian> to identify their ethnicity and language nothing can avert them of being from now on Macedonians.Did you notice how many times he uses the words Bulgarian,Bulgaria e.t.c ?

Originally Posted by buden

In the Macedonian language we have lots and lots of words that are not present in Serbian or Bulgarian, words that don't have Latin or Greek origin. And of course, we believe that those words are purely Macedonian that stayed in the language from more than 2 thousand years ago.

Why you didn't quote some of these words?I'm really very curious to see them.I bet all my money that you can't find more than 10 such words that are not of Bulgarian,Serbian,Greek,Turkish,Albanian,Vlach or Romanian origin.

Originally Posted by buden

You, Hellenes, use some Macedonian words also. It's impossible you don't.

We use some Slavic words but you use 10 times more Greek words:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...n-dialect.html

Originally Posted by buden

Somebody fill me in pleasewith what words do you greet someone on Easter, something something about Jesus resurrecting?

We say <Christos anesti> .So what's your point?Do you consider it as <ancient Makedonski-Protoslavic> ? What etymology do you suggest?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by buden

As far as the Macedonian language being a Bulgarian dialect, that is just sad nonsense. Let's reverse the polarity of your argument. Simple incursion into your logic and, with utmost fairness to maintain justice, think of the obvious possibility of Macedonian language influencing Bulgarian, Sebian and so forth, as far as Kiril and Metodij went.

O you think so !!??....lets see what the historians say :

Here from the book "Early Medieval Balkans" of John V.A. Fine , chapter titled "The slavic Invasions" , pages 36-37 :


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/img530/antesslavsel2.png/1/][IMG]http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/antesslavsel2

"Thus the reader should ignore referrences to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages , which appear in some modern works"

"Until the late ninetinth century Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs felt themselves belonging on the same ethnic group , that of the Bulgarians , but also outsider scholars had concluded likewise."

And the online version of the book is here

....For about more than 50 books expressing the same thing watch this thread here:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...fyromians.html

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by buden

Hello. First post. Be nice, maybe we will foster some kind of friendship. Here goes nothing until the ban.

I would like to dispel several things relating to the initial article. Krste Petkov Misirkov is often quoted in propaganda material from Greek or Bulgarian origin, always disfavoring Macedonia and the true nature of his essay “За Македонцките Работи“(On Macedonian Matters). How many of you have read this essay? How many understand the core essence in it? Not too many, or perhaps none. That is simply because you are not the Macedonians to whom this essay was dedicated. To me as a Macedonian(or call me however you please, but I know exactly how I feel) that essay means the world because Misirkov touches upon the most unnerving problems that the Macedonians were facing a century ago.

As far as the Macedonian language being a Bulgarian dialect, that is just sad nonsense. Let's reverse the polarity of your argument. Simple incursion into your logic and, with utmost fairness to maintain justice, think of the obvious possibility of Macedonian language influencing Bulgarian, Sebian and so forth, as far as Kiril and Metodij went.

I can guarantee you with a liter of my own blood, *spits in palm, rubs neck* that I have spent most of my life in Macedonia than anywhere else and I KNOW very well who understands whose language. Bulgarians from the west, Pirin part, understand perhaps half of what Macedonians speak. To a Macedonian the rest of Bulgaria speaks a phantom language, we just have difficult time following. Serbia and for that matter any country to the left of it, have done their damage with that horrible Turbo Folk music that after the breakup of Yugoslavia was wildly enjoyed by the peasantry in Macedonia.
When Macedonians talk to Serbs or Bulgarians it all goes wrong, simply because we speak so very different dialects and they barely understand. It's different with written language, i need not elaborate on this.

In the Macedonian language we have lots and lots of words that are not present in Serbian or Bulgarian, words that don't have Latin or Greek origin. And of course, we believe that those words are purely Macedonian that stayed in the language from more than 2 thousand years ago.

You, Hellenes, use some Macedonian words also. It's impossible you don't. Somebody fill me in please, with what words do you greet someone on Easter, something something about Jesus resurrecting?

Hi BUDEN, welcome aboard !

You said "Here goes nothing until the ban.". I am sure that if you continue in this considerate manner, nobody will ban you !

Now, on the issue :

a) ON MY SOURCES ABOUT YOUR PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE
My sources have been 1)My father and 2)A lot of FOREIGN books, between them Encyclopaedia Britannica, where the more concise reports are to be found.
My father was a small business merchant who was doing business with various parts of W.Macedonia. He spoke good Russian, and could understand people in W. Macedonia speaking a Slavic language. He used to call them "Slav-Macedonians", and so do I. He had no hard feelings about them, to be sure, and so do I.

I will save you copy-pasting from many books (NOT Greek), and just present the Britannica views (they are almost identical to what other books say, but condensed in short phrases). I quote :

BRITANNICA ON PEOPLE AND CHARACTERISTICS
"Macedonia has inherited a complex ethnic structure. The largest group, calling themselves Macedonians (about two-thirds of the population), are descendants of Slavic tribes that moved into the region between the 6th and 8th centuries AD. Their language is very closely related to Bulgarian and is written in the Cyrillic script.
……………………
In language, religion, and history, a case could be made for identifying Macedonian Slavs with Bulgarians and to a lesser extent with Serbs.
…………………………
Half a millennium of contact with Turkey had a profound impact on language, food habits, and many aspects of daily living in Macedonia.
……………………………………
Whatever distinctive characteristics Macedonians may or may not have had before the coming of the Turks, it is undoubtedly the case that, by the outbreak of the Balkan Wars, they (along with the Muslims of Bosnia) were the European people most closely tied to Ottoman culture."

BRITANNICA ON LANGUAGE
"Macedonian Makedonski Jazik South Slavic language that is most closely related to Bulgarian and is written in the Cyrillic alphabet. Macedonian is the official language of the Republic of Macedonia, where it is spoken by more than 1.3 million people. The Macedonian language is also spoken in adjacent areas of Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia and in Australia, Yugoslavia, and Albania.
Macedonian, like Bulgarian, no longer declines nouns for case. There are three main dialect groups: (1) the northern dialects, similar to the neighbouring Serbian dialects, (2) the eastern dialects, similar to and gradually shading into Bulgarian, and (3) the western dialects, most distinct from Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian and therefore chosen by the Yugoslav authorities in 1944 as the basis for the standard language"

[ Underlined by me ]


b) ON MISIRKOV

http://makedonika.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/krste-misirkov-on-macedonian-matters-can-macedonia-turn-itself-into-a-separate-ethnographical-and-political-unit-1903/

I quote from MISIRKOV :

"...The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.

...

If our opponents now admit that smaller ethnographic units have been formed from larger groups as a result of historical necessity, and if they have hitherto regarded Macedonians as Bulgarians why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which everybody including themselves describes as the Bulgarian nation, two smaller units might be formed: a Bulgarian and a Macedonian one? Historical circumstances at present demand that this division should be made, just as they once demanded that Bulgarians. Serbs. Croats and Slovenes should emerge from the South Slav group, or that Poles. Czechs, Slovaks and Lusatian Serbs should emerge from the West Slav group.

The emergence of the Macedonians as a separate Slav people is a perfectly normal historical process which is quite in keeping with the process by which the Bulgarian, Croatian and Serbian peoples emerged from the South Slav group."

[ Underlined by me ]


c) On foreign words in Greek language
We have about 250 to 300 words of Slavic origin in modern Greek. Italian and Turkish origin words are about 2000 + 2000. In a total of 100.000 words this influence is minimal. If you want, I will copy-paste a sizable article on modern Greek language by BRITANNICA.

In the Easter, we greet one another with the words "ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ =CHRISTOS ANESTI = JESUS CHRIST IS RESURECTED"

CHRISTOS = the annointed one, from the ancient and modern verb CHRIO = cover with a liquid

ANESTI = ancient ( Bible) past tense form of the verb ANISTAMAI= to stay upright again, today we use the same verb as ANASTAINOMAI instead of ANISTAMAI and the past tense is (he) ANASTITHIKE insread of ANESTI.

But the greeting has survived :CHRISTOS ANESTI
And the answer is : ALITHOS ANESTI ( It is true he is resurected)
ALITHOS = true, from ancient and modern word ALITHEIA =TRUTH.

Conclusions


1. As MISIRKOV says, you emerged as a separate Slav people in keeping with the process by which the Bulgarian, Croatian and Serbian peoples emerged from the South Slav group. MISIRKOV's view is identical with that of BRITANNICA and numerous other books.

2. Quite naturally, Macedonian language has emerged the same way. Due to your contacts with the numerically stronger and close neighbors, the Bulgarians, your language is most closely related to Bulgarian. It is the W.Macedonian dialect that was most distinct from Bulgarian, and therefore purposely used by TITO in 1944 in order to alienate the people of your country from their older (i.e. 100 to 150 years before ) Bulgarian roots.

3. As you see, there is no fanaticism or nationalistic hue in the above conclusions. It is just scientific (linguistic and ethnological) research.

4. I do not doubt at all that you yourself, that I reckon you are a young man under 30, have been educated in an environment avoiding to present such views as above. So, you are quite sincere in what you say. But we, too, are sincere : I do not rely on Greek sources, but solely on foreign ones, as far as your people are concerned. And, as I see, they prove my old man right.

5. After all the above, you understand that a compromise on the name issue would be good for both sides.



Regards,
VISSARION.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

If our opponents now admit that smaller ethnographic units have been formed from larger groups as a result of historical necessity, and if they have hitherto regarded Macedonians as Bulgarians why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which everybody including themselves describes as the Bulgarian nation, two smaller units might be formed: a Bulgarian and a Macedonian one? Historical circumstances at present demand that this division should be made, just as they once demanded that Bulgarians. Serbs. Croats and Slovenes should emerge from the South Slav group, or that Poles. Czechs, Slovaks and Lusatian Serbs should emerge from the West Slav group.

The emergence of the Macedonians as a separate Slav people is a perfectly normal historical process which is quite in keeping with the process by which the Bulgarian, Croatian and Serbian peoples emerged from the South Slav group."

Well,this excerpt of Misirkov's <Za Makedontsite raboti> supports what i wrote in my previous post:The central idea of Misirkov's preaching is: <It doesn't matter that we and all of our ancestors were and called ourselves Bulgarians till today,from now on we can be Macedonians> .

[Andrew]

A 1977 Cambridge linguistic book talking about the languages of the Balkans !!


[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img386/bynon1977jv2

Where are you "Makedonskis" ???

We have Greek,Albanian,** B U L G A R I A N **,Serbo-Croat,Turk,Romanian !!

I'd say you're included in the Bulgarians !!!

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by Andrew

A 1977 Cambridge linguistic book talking about the languages of the Balkans !!


Where are you "Makedonskis" ???

We have Greek,Albanian,** B U L G A R I A N **,Serbo-Croat,Turk,Romanian !!

I'd say you're included in the Bulgarians !!!

Well, ANDREW, you may have noticed in my post that MAKEDONSKI JAZIK is today accepted as a language. In 1977, it was not yet recognised as a language. In my opinion, this recognition was made for pure political reasons.

Never forget what Max Weinreich said :

"A language is a dialect with Army and Navy".

FYROM has no sizable army and no navy at all, but USA, her protector, does have as we all know....

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

Well, ANDREW, you may have noticed in my post that MAKEDONSKI JAZIK is today accepted as a language. In 1977, it was not yet recognised as a language. In my opinion, this recognition was made for pure political reasons.

Never forget what Max Weinreich said :

"A language is a dialect with Army and Navy".

FYROM has no sizable army and no navy at all, but USA, her protector, does have as we all know....

I'd say you are right Bessarion !!! "Politicaly accelerated recognition" !!!

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'd say you are right Bessarion !!! "Politicaly accelerated recognition" !!!

Yeah, that is exactly what happened, ANDREW!

I wonder where is BUDEN hiding.....