Ethnic status of Macedonia

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

The national structure of Macedonia before 1912 is a much debated issue. This leads many people to think that Macedonia was full of Bulgarians, with a few Turks and, if any, Greeks. And consequently, to speak of contemporary Aegean, a part of Greece, as being ‘occupied’.
The following is an attempt to see the problem from many angles, and draw conclusions.

REMARK : In the following discussion, in order to avoid confusion, the word MACEDONIA refers always to what is today’s FYRom+Greek Macedonia +Bulgarian Macedonia, or, if you prefer, FYRoM + Aegean + Pirin Macedonia.

The problem of the national profile of Macedonia in the eve of the 20th century is a quite difficult task. The only reliable Ottoman census was that of Houssein Hilmi Pasha of 1904. This was conducted by the Ottoman authorities under the inspection of the Great Powers, at least in the big cities. So it has some elements of objectivity.
Nevertheless, it has its inherent drawbacks :
a) The Turks labeled “Greek” anybody adhering to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate. So it is possible that people speaking Bulgarian (or Slavic Macedonian, if you like this term) were counted as Greeks because they adhered to the Patriarchate. People adhering to the Bulgarian Exarchate could have been Slavic speakers with vague ethnic consciousness, also. Vlachs are counted independently, but their very small numbers suggest that some of them were labeled Greeks as adhering to the Patriarchate.
b) The number of Jews is shown smaller than expected, as proved by their presence in Thessaloniki in 1914.
c) The “BRITISH DOCUMENTS ON THE ORIGIN OF THE WAR” [ it means the Balkan War], Vol. 9/1, page 18, contain a report of the British Ambassador in Istanbul M. de C. Findlay addressed to the British Foreign Minister sir Edward Grey, on 07-07-1909, where he describes the view of the Russian Ambassador in Sofia Sementowski Kurilo : “For the time being Bulgars and Turks have as common objective to eliminate the Greek influence in Macedonia…”. So the results may be biased as to the numbers of Greeks (lower) and Turks (higher). [ My comment : The Bulgarian army was numericaly stronger, more disciplined and better equipped than the Greek one. The Turks did not pay attention to the Greek army, having memories of their easy victory over it in 1897, just -7- years later. So they cajoled the Bulgars, in order to avoid any attack by them].
d) The Macedonians are absent in the census. They were people of vague ethnic consciousness, and were counted as Bulgarians or Greeks, depending on the Patriarchate they adhered to.

Census of Hilmi Pasha 1904 (Ottoman)
Nationality ……….Vilaet Thessal ……….Vil. Monastir…….Vil. Kossovo……..TOTAL
Moslem………………487.555……………..480.018……………752.434…….1. 720.007
Greeks………………373.227………………261.283……………..13.452………64 7.962
Bulgars………………207.317………………178.412……………172.005………55 7.734
Serbs………………... ....…..…………………………..……………..167.601………167.601
Jews…………………..48.720…………….......…………..………………………………4 8.720
Vlachs…………………………………………..30.116……........………………………. 30.116
TOTAL……………1.186.369………………949.829……………1.105.492…..3 .171.690

Other existing statistics
Statistics on Macedonia
(From J. CVIJIC, Questions Balkaniques, Paris Neuchatel 1926)
Nationality………….Serbian(1899)……..Greek(1899)…..Bul garian(1900)….German(1905)
Turks…………………..231.400……………576.600……….489.664……………. 250.000
Greeks………………...201.140……………656.300……….225.152…………… .200.000
Bulgars………………….57.600…………………………...….1.184.036…………… ………..
Serbs………………...2.048.320……………………………………700…………………….
Slav-Macedonians …………………………454.700…………...………………….2.000.000
Albanians………………165.620………….124.211…………124.211…………. .300.000
Vlachs…………………...74.465……………41.200………….77.267………….. ..100.000
Jews……………………..64.600………….…53.100……….….67.800……………… ……..
Others……………………37.275…………..38.600…………..79.444……………. 91.700
TOTAL………………2.880.420………..1.944.711……….2.248.274……… …2.941.700

Serbian Stats : Sp. Goposevic, Bevoelkerung der Altserbien und Makedonien, Wien 1899
Bulgar “ : V. Kancov, Makedonija, Etnografijia I Statistika, Sofia 1900
Greek “ : Nikolaides, Makedonien, Berlin 1899
German “ : K. Oestreich, Die Bevoelkerung von Makedonien, Geogr. Zeitschrift. XI, 1905, p.292. The author adds that the numbers he presents are simple estimates.

The first -3- statistics are impressive as to the ‘accuracy’ of the numbers presented, a task impossible under the circumstances.
It is obvious from these statistics that they are expressing the inner will of their authors, wishing to present their own favored nationality as prevailing.
The Bulgarian and Serbian Stats do not ‘see’ any Slavo-Macedonian nationality. The Greek Stat ‘sees’ Slavo-Macedonians, and the German simply ‘Macedonians’, no Serbs or Bulgars at all.

In order to show the exaggerations of these statistics : The numbers of the Turks and Albanians together, easily to be defined due to their Moslem religion, are different I all -4- Stats :
Serbian about 400.000
Greek about 700.000
Bulgarian “ 615.000
German “ 550.000
Average “ 570.000
So the total number of Moslem in Hilmi, i.e. Turks and Albanians , is 1.720.000 in the -3- Vilaets. If we take into account only Thessaloniki and Monastir then the number reduces to about 970.000. Just compare this number to the maximum 615.000 of the -4- statistics above.
As for the numbers of Bulgars and Serbs, comparison becomes a real joke !
Generally speaking, a comparison between the -4- above statistics and the Hilmi census is difficult : The villaet of Monastir included a big chunk of what is today’s Albania, the vilaet of Kossovo was partly FYRoM (Skopje included) and partly today’s Kossovo. So Hilmi census covers a much larger area than Macedonia.
So it is more than clear that national interests have cast a fog over the real national composition of Macedonia in 1900.
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THE GREEK and THE BULGARIAN ELEMENTS IN AEGEAN MACEDONIA, pop. 1.163.000 [Aegean according to SIMOVSKI, FYRoM source, had a population of 1.163.500] ignoring the Greek sources.

A) FIRST METHOD

a) According to HILMI census :
The total number of Greeks in Thessaloniki and Monastir Vilaets is about 634.000. Since the Ottomans called any adherent of the Patriarchate as a Greek, it is possible that in this number Vlachs and Grkman(*) are included. If we assume just half of them to be real Greeks, we have 317.000, or 27% in the Aegean.
As for the Bulgars, they were 386.000. Assuming them to be half in what is today FYRoM + Pirin and half in the Aegean, we have ~ 190.000 or 16.3%.

b) According to the average of the -3- censuses in CVIJIC, the Greek one ignored:
209.000, or 18%. Taking into account the vast differences between stats, this number is a minimum.

c)According to SIMOVSKI
Summary of "the Inhabited Places in Aegean Macedonia"
Volume I by Todor Simovski
Institute for National History, Skopje, Macedonia 1978
".... From totally 2.000.000 inhabitants in Macedonia on the whole before its partition, more from the half of it, in other words, 1.163.477 inhabitants lived in Aegean Macedonia. The national structure of its population, which, as a result of the five century slavery, met with serious ethnic changes on the eve of the Balkan Wars, was the following: Macedonian Christians about 326.000, Macedonian Moslems 41.000,Turks 295.000, Greek Christians 240.000, Greek Moslems 14.000, Christian Vlachs 46.000, Moslem Vlachs 3.500, Albanian Moslems and Christians 9.000, Jews 60.000, Gypsies 30.000, and the rest from other minorities. "

So there were 240.000 Christian Greeks, or 20.6%. [ By Moslem Greeks he probably means the so-called Valaades of Western Macedonia, Grevena. Greeks Converted to Islam during the 17th century. They preferred to be transferred to Turkey, though.]
It is obvious that SIMOVSKI does not count the ‘Grkman’ as Greeks, for he simply knows who I who, in contrast with the Ottomans or the Germans. And he does not ‘see’ any Bulgarians at all !!!


Conclusion : If we exclude the Greek sources, the average number of Greeks in Aegean before 1912 was 255.000, or 22%. In all the above we ignore the Greek sources completely.

SO: First Method gives 22% Greeks and 16.3% Bulgarians.

B) SECOND METHOD

After the end of the Balkan Wars, Greece got what is known to people of FYRoM as Aegean Macedonia. This includes parts of Monastir Vilaet and parts of Thessaloniki Vilaet.
From Monastir Vilaet, Greece got almost half, from Thessaloniki Vilaet roughly 60%.
Given the problem of defining the national composition of Macedonia as a whole, and the fact that nobody could expect how much the Greek wins of the Wars would be, there is no statistics of this specific area at all.
The best way to estimate with enough accuracy the national composition of the area is by examining the condition that crystallized in the League of Nations [LoN] statistic of 1926 in Greece, conducted under the inspection of the League of Nations. The LoN had averted a war between Greece and Bulgaria in 1925, had intervened when Yugoslavia threatened war after the Kalfof-Politis Greek-Bulgarian Agreement, and supervised the census in order to avoid further friction between the -3- countries, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece. The data are to be found in “League of Nations: Greek Refugee Settlement, Annex, Geneva 1926.

In this statistics the total population structure is given as
Greeks.......1.239.000 87.7 % ( most possibly this includes the ‘Grkman’ )
Bulgarians..... 82.000 5.8 % ( or Slav Macedonians ; depends who sees it )
Jews..............60.000 4.2 %
Others...........31.000 2.3 %
=========================
Total.........1.412.000

The Vlachs [ estimated by me to be max 50.000 ] were included in the Greeks. The 650.000 refugees that settled in Aegean after 1923 were naturally included in the Greeks.

If we subtract these 650.000 and the 50.000 Vlachs out of the 1.239.000 Greeks we have :
Greeks before 1923 = 1.239.000 -650.000 – 50,000 = 539.000
The exchanged Turkish and Bulgarian populations were according to LoN data
Turks 518.000 (may be more ; the number of those who fled during the First Balkan War is not clear )
Bulgars 135.000 ( may be more; the number of those who fled during the Second Balkan War is not clear )
So the Bulgars were 135.000 + 82.000 = 217.000 ( or you may call them Slav-Macedonians)

So the national structure before 1920 was
Greeks......539.000 38.0 % ( max, incl. ‘Grkman’ )
Turks........518.000 36.7 % ( min, may be more )
Vlachs.........50.000 3.5 %
Bulgars......217.000 15.4 % ( min, may be more ; or Slav-Macedonians, if you prefer)
Jews............60.000 4.2 %
Others.........31.000 2.2 %
=====================
1.415.000

SO: Second method gives 38% Greeks, ~ 16% Bulgarians


COMPARISON OF Greeks in several SOURCES :
SIMOVSKI- FYRoM in ………. 20.6 %
HILMI Pasha, Ottoman……… 27%
Average of misc. censuses ..22%
Greek view as in PYRSOS…..42%

The Greek stats show the Greeks double that of the SIMOVSKI’s data !
The SIMOVSKI stats show no Bulgars at all !

‘Objective’ censuses from all !! ‘No’ nationalistic overtones at all !!!!! For both sides !! Balkans.......
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CONCLUSION
In Aegean Macedonia Greeks were comparatively more than Bulgarians before 1912. Non of them was a majority. The fate of War was favourable to us Greeks in 1912-13. We were still lucky to loose the war with Turkey in 1920-22 : As Arnold Toynbee very aptly put it, “That defeat was for Greece a blessing in disguise”. We were able to bring back to their motherland Greeks who have colonized Asia Minor 3000 years before (my parents from Trabzon included), and thus to Hellenize the Aegean, that was to a rough 70% Turkish and Bulgarian.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

A message for Slavicwolf :
You speak about tremendous atrocities. I agree fro 1912-13, not as to the number, but as to the hiddeous quality of the crimes against civilians. But they were commited by all combattants, Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks and Serbs. The Carnegie Reports contain terrible descriptions.

We all have to be sorry for this past. But being objective is not a crime : I am the descendant of refugees from Asia Minor, Pontus, and I know what real "tremendous atrocities" mean. Out of 450.000 Pontians, only 200.000 managed to reach Greece in 1923, and 50.000 to flee to Caucasus. The rest died of exposion, famine, deseases and slaughters mainly by irregular Kurds in the interior of Asia Minor.

Pontians were relativle lucky : Out of 1.600.000 Armenians, only 100.000 managed to flee behind the Russian lines in 1915-18.

So, when you speak about "tremendous" numbers, you have to be more specific. It is quite accurate that we lost almost 40.000 Greeks in Eastern Macedonia in 1941-1944, victims of the fascict Govt of Bulgaria that sided with Adolf.

There is NO such number to be given by any historian fro the civilian losses of Bulgarians during 1912-13.

[Greek-Cowboy]

BTW: Afti sas phonazoune "Christani Turki" then sas vazuneh mesa meh tous elines. Eneh trelli- den tous vazis mialo......budelladez.

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

A message for Slavicwolf :
You speak about tremendous atrocities. I agree fro 1912-13, not as to the number, but as to the hiddeous quality of the crimes against civilians. But they were commited by all combattants, Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks and Serbs. The Carnegie Reports contain terrible descriptions.

We all have to be sorry for this past. But being objective is not a crime : I am the descendant of refugees from Asia Minor, Pontus, and I know what real "tremendous atrocities" mean. Out of 450.000 Pontians, only 200.000 managed to reach Greece in 1923, and 50.000 to flee to Caucasus. The rest died of exposion, famine, deseases and slaughters mainly by irregular Kurds in the interior of Asia Minor.

Pontians were relativle lucky : Out of 1.600.000 Armenians, only 100.000 managed to flee behind the Russian lines in 1915-18.

So, when you speak about "tremendous" numbers, you have to be more specific. It is quite accurate that we lost almost 40.000 Greeks in Eastern Macedonia in 1941-1944, victims of the fascict Govt of Bulgaria that sided with Adolf.

There is NO such number to be given by any historian fro the civilian losses of Bulgarians during 1912-13.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

For Greek Cow Boy :

I do know that Slavomacedonians, or Skopians, call us Pontians and Asia Minor refugees in general "Christian Turks".

But Slavicof sounds as Bulgarian. Slavomacedonians do call Bulgarians "Turkotatars" !!

So I am curious to see what a Bulgarian's view is on the issue of the national breakdown of Macedonia before 1912.

Thanks, friend !

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

For Greek Cow Boy :

I do know that Slavomacedonians, or Skopians, call us Pontians and Asia Minor refugees in general "Christian Turks".

But Slavicof sounds as Bulgarian. Slavomacedonians do call Bulgarians "Turkotatars" !!

Ironically this comes from people who are partly descedants of "Christianised Vardariotae" , Turkic group which had settled in Vardar valley and later had been assimilated by the Slavs. Not forgetting though cases like the Uzes, Pechenegs, Koumans and other fine Turkic people where they also descend from.

Its even more amusing in the case of Bulgarians. Michael Ataliates in his 'Historia' mentions "Bulgars originally from western macedonia were settled in regions of the lower danube whose population by the end of the 11th cent. came to be made up of a mixture of peoples, including Pechenegs".

[Greek-Cowboy]

My Brathas....

These people are crazy...... they are so uneducated that they believe commi stories that their grandfathers told them. Plus you can mix in the fevgatous in diaspora that make up the the rest of the "Trella"

You can have all the credible sources and the pope to swears it's the truth- they will call it a Greek lie/ propiganda ect.... ti nas sas pou...

I live outside of Greece and the trella you see here with these Voulgari is unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Ptolemy

Ironically this comes from people who are partly descedants of "Christianised Vardariotae" , Turkic group which had settled in Vardar valley and later had been assimilated by the Slavs. Not forgetting though cases like the Uzes, Pechenegs, Koumans and other fine Turkic people where they also descend from.

Its even more amusing in the case of Bulgarians. Michael Ataliates in his 'Historia' mentions "Bulgars originally from western macedonia were settled in regions of the lower danube whose population by the end of the 11th cent. came to be made up of a mixture of peoples, including Pechenegs".

[akritas]

There is a similar thread that explain a lot as about the ethnic status in Macedonia. You can read it here