dont you slavic me!!!!

[sutapanaki]

Originally Posted by kostas68

How much true and unbiased could be considered a history of the Balkan wars,written by a Bulgarian professor?As much as if it was written by a Greek one or by a Serbian.Only a neutral historian could be objective and impartial.If someone who doesn't know anything about the Balkan history read this,he'll conclude that the Bulgarians were the <good guys> who fought against the <bad> Greeks and Serbians and they would defeate both of them
if they weren't attacked by the Romanians and the Turks.History doesn't mention in a war <good> and <bad> guys,only winners and losers,the rest is fairy tales.I think this mr.Dimitrov uses some naive arguments in order to justify every Bulgarian act,especially when he writes that when the Bulgarian king decide to attack Greece and Serbia,he <didn't have war in mind but only a demonstration of force which ought to make Greece and Serbia believe that Bulgaria would go all the way and make them more yielding in St.Petersburg>

I agree with you that it is best to see an impartial comment on the war, but one that doesn't only state the fact. A comment with analysis on the reasons for the things to happen that way and not the other. Anyway, I posted this not to hurt you national feeling but because it described the events by dates and facts. I don't agree that it tries to cement the idea that Bulgarians were the good guys and the others - the bad. I think it very clearly says that it were mistakes and greed that led to the war. To me it seems that only stupidity could be the reason to start a war in an international situation like that one. That's why I also tend to believe that Ferdinand didn't really had war in mind, for exactly the same reason. Also, one of the reasons why Bulgaria insisted on the whole of Macedonia was that in Sofia at that time at least half of the population were migrants from Macedonia and there was also a big presence of IMRO activists. I think Ferdinand and other politicians could have been afraid to a certain extend because of that. Which however, doesn't really justify their actions.
If Romania and Turkey didn't attack things could have been different. We don't know and can only speculate from the view point of our national identity and pride. But nonetheless it is a speculation. Truth is however that Greece didn't have a single country to country encounter with Bulgaria in a war in modern times. Serbia did have and lost terribly.

Originally Posted by kostas68

If i'm not wrong,i know what incident mentions here Dimitrov.It was in the region of Mt.Pangheon,today Serres prefecture,where the nearby river Strymonas was the border between the Greek and the Bulgarian troops.It was a conflict between 2-3 Greek platoons,reinforced by some 50-60 local Greek villagers and an entire Bulgarian batallion,where the Bulgarian triumph and the destruction of the <overwhelming> Greek troops was total:Almost all the villagers were killed,20-30 others who didn't participate in the battle were later executed and some houses were burnt.

It could have been that, or it could have not been, I don't know. But it seems stupid to me that couple of platoons would go behind enemy lines just for sheer bravery. Because he mentions that those Greek forces were behind the Bulgarian lines. Things like that usually don't happen in war, people are not eager to risk their lives if there is not a good reason.

Originally Posted by kostas68

And what about the Bulgarian attrocities in Serres and Drama?

I believe there were such, as there were Greek and Serbian ones too. Its a war. Even today there are American atrocities in Iraq.

Originally Posted by kostas68

This belief,that the Greek army was completely surrounded in Kresna and its destruction was imminent,and the story with the telegram also are a kind of urban legends amongst all the Bulgarian historians,in order to justify their claim that Bulgaria was unlucky,the Bucharest treaty was unfair because Bulgaria lost territories not in the battlefield e.t.c. Off course this Bulgarian belief could never be proved true.History is written only by facts that have happened,not by assumptions,even if they seem to be reasonable and the only real fact in 2nd Balkan war is that Bulgaria was defeated in battlefield.I also believe that if Alexander the Great hadn't died young,he would conquer Italy,so instead the Roman empire there would exist a Greek empire,but this is an assumption that could never be proved true.The fact is that the Roman empire existed.

If you read carefully you'll see that the author admits that the telegram was a legend and also he says that even if it was true Bulgaria lost the war anyway and didn't have a chance for winning. As for the surrounded Greek army I think it is true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresna_Gorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kresna_Gorge

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Histor...BalkanWar.html

Some of those links can be counted as impartial.

Originally Posted by kostas68

Instead blaming the fate,the Great powers e.t.c you should blame better your greed,that was what destructed you.On the same ethnographic and historic rights were based also the Greek claims and after the 1st Balkan war,Bulgaria was occupying a large area between the rivers Strymonas/Struma and Nestos/Mesta inhabited predominantly by Greek populations and,the most important she had acquired an outlet in Aegean Sea as she always desired,the port of Kavala.

I don't think serious people in Bulgaria blame exclusively the fate. They are clear that horrible mistakes were made at that time. Bulgaria did gain access to the Aegean and also the author admits that in those territories there were towns inhabited mostly by Greeks.

Originally Posted by kostas68

Although Bulgaria had gain lands without any ethnographic and historic right,she wanted also Thessaloniki from Greece.

Here you're right, Thessaloniki had never been in the Bulgarian state, although there were BUlgarians who lived there.

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Excuse me but cant you read well?

There it says they surrendered to the Bulgarians , not that they were defeated by them!
And in 45 they were jsut a hand full of men, nothing mentionable..
What are you trying to prove? Bulgaria was a major strategical master like the German armed forces or British army?

I'm not trying to prove anything. Someone before said he/she never heard of Prinz Eugen SS division, that's why I posted the link. Actually you can read here:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-%D1%8...B8%D0%B9%C2%BB

It is in Russian (which is not Bulgarian you know) so may be you can trust it. Paste it in Google language tool and you'll get a crappy translation but still good enough to understand what it says.
In 1945 they could have been a handfull of man, but in October 1944 they were not, because they were given the task to guard the corridor for the withdrawal of the German troops from Greece.

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Besides do you agree with the fact that you Bulgarians should return the Trebenisthe treasures to Fyrom immediately because its not yours nor your culture...

May be, if they agree to return parts of our history which they claim is theirs. In 1918 when those things were taken there was no country called Macedonia or Fyrom, it was South Serbia. BTW, you probably know that artifacts from this treasure are also now in Serbia. Fyrom can ask for those too, although I don't think they will, because it is Serbia, which has brainwashed them.

[Cadmus]

You are right the Serbs should give them back to!

But wait for a while untill Fyrom becomes more stabile! because right now if you hand them over god knows what will happen to it!
The Fyromian archaeologists and government will right now even sell their own mama's n order to achieve wealth..right now the Fyromian government exists of people that only hold high positions for their country for their own personal benefts (pocket fillers!) ..

Or hand them over to me , ill take great care of them!

I think and know that all artefacts attributed to one specific area should be on display on the regions national musea!

And yes they are brainwashed by the Serbs and others...

To bad that such an intresting area as Fyrom is losing its cohesion/stability due to some idiots who think only for their own personal benefit.

[Cadmus]

PS on the Prinz Eugen division do a search on the axis history forum!
There should be enough info on them, and their years in Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia and Macedonia..

Those guys were war criminals crossing the line of humanitarian warfare every single time..
But that goes almost to every German armed division serving in the Balkans.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Or hand them over to me , ill take great care of them!

I can guarantee on Cadmus' intentions !!!

He is the official Dexarologist of the FORUM and one of the few that know the history of these golden masks of Trebenishte culture !!!

BTW , how come those masks ended in bulgaria ??? I didn't know that !!
When did it happened ??

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

I agree with you that it is best to see an impartial comment on the war, but one that doesn't only state the fact. A comment with analysis on the reasons for the things to happen that way and not the other. Anyway, I posted this not to hurt you national feeling but because it described the events by dates and facts. I don't agree that it tries to cement the idea that Bulgarians were the good guys and the others - the bad. I think it very clearly says that it were mistakes and greed that led to the war. To me it seems that only stupidity could be the reason to start a war in an international situation like that one. That's why I also tend to believe that Ferdinand didn't really had war in mind, for exactly the same reason. Also, one of the reasons why Bulgaria insisted on the whole of Macedonia was that in Sofia at that time at least half of the population were migrants from Macedonia and there was also a big presence of IMRO activists. I think Ferdinand and other politicians could have been afraid to a certain extend because of that. Which however, doesn't really justify their actions.
If Romania and Turkey didn't attack things could have been different. We don't know and can only speculate from the view point of our national identity and pride. But nonetheless it is a speculation. Truth is however that Greece didn't have a single country to country encounter with Bulgaria in a war in modern times. Serbia did have and lost terribly.
If you read carefully you'll see that the author admits that the telegram was a legend and also he says that even if it was true Bulgaria lost the war anyway and didn't have a chance for winning. As for the surrounded Greek army I think it is true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresna_Gorge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kresna_Gorge

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Histor...BalkanWar.html

Some of those links can be counted as impartial.

My intension also wasn't to hurt anyone's national feeling,i'm just trying to show you that sometimes what we believe or have been taught as true doesn't agree with the view of the others and this (The Kresna battle) is the perfect example.The Wikipedia article was edited by a Bulgarian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ba...f_Kresna_Gorge
As you can read,the Greek view is very different.
All these articles of Wikipedia and the last website,are grounded on the book of Richard Hall <The Balkan wars> (2000),he is the one who is mentioned in Wikipedia's article as the neutral scholar who agrees with the Bulgarian historians.But who is this Richard Hall?I couldn't find info about him in google,i found a comedian,an author of crime novels,even an ...ufologist with that name,but not the author of that book.

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

It could have been that, or it could have not been, I don't know. But it seems stupid to me that couple of platoons would go behind enemy lines just for sheer bravery. Because he mentions that those Greek forces were behind the Bulgarian lines. Things like that usually don't happen in war, people are not eager to risk their lives if there is not a good reason.

This battle was actually foughted mainly between Bulgarian troops and armed Greek villagers.The stupidity was that some Greek low ranked officers believed that some armed but untrained and unexperienced villagers could confront a tactical army and the tragic was that the villagers were the ones who paid for this stupidity.

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

I believe there were such, as there were Greek and Serbian ones too. Its a war. Even today there are American atrocities in Iraq.

This is another tragedy of the war and i also believe that everyone commited atrocities in the Balkan wars,therefore i avoid to talk about it,unless someone reminds only the crimes of the others,forgeting to mention his own crimes,as mr. Dimitrov made.

[Cadmus]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I can guarantee on Cadmus' intentions !!!

He is the official Dexarologist of the FORUM and one of the few that know the history of these golden masks of Trebenishte culture !!!

BTW , how come those masks ended in bulgaria ??? I didn't know that !!
When did it happened ??

Hi Andrew!

They were accidentally found in 1918 during the WW1 , when Bulgarian army soldiers were constructing defensive works on the road near Gorenci village..
They dug and unearthed several graves containing the masks and most beautifull kraters from bronze and several silver works..

Later the masks were taken by Bulgarian archaeologists to Sofia were they rest until today later in 1932 Serb archaeologists worked on the same field and found additional masks!

Now remember the post in ancient macedonian history topic where the Gerunium/Gorenci theory is posted of mine?

They do not necessarily belong to Gerunium but they belonged definately to the antique cyclopean town high on Gabavski rid,(the hills above Gorenci)
There is more there in the area but no resaerch as of yet!

Whether the are Enchelean/Peresadyes or Dessaretian nobody knows they calculated that the finds are from the 7/6th c.B.C.!

One can imagine that the fertile plain below the Gabavski rid was an important area for atleast the necropolis and other sanctuary elements.

Now baffling is that as i have said before the lake area of Lychnitis contained atleast 6/7 very important towns if not more so there are numerous options for the culture or atleast to what town the necropolis belonged to..if not all towns there belonged to the same culture since the area is not that big at all..and the inhabitants at one time should had joined forces (coalition ) the Enchelian empire comes first at mind since it was a royal house and best noted in ancient history of that area..but other options still stand firm, until more research is done ..

[sutapanaki]

Originally Posted by kostas68

As you can read,the Greek view is very different.
All these articles of Wikipedia and the last website,are grounded on the book of Richard Hall <The Balkan wars> (2000),he is the one who is mentioned in Wikipedia's article as the neutral scholar who agrees with the Bulgarian historians.But who is this Richard Hall?I couldn't find info about him in google,i found a comedian,an author of crime novels,even an ...ufologist with that name,but not the author of that book.

It is Ok for the Greek view to be different. We can only guess what could have happened but we will never know. Things took another direction. Plus on the Balkans one rarely finds same views in different countries.

I searched Amazon for the book of Richard Hall. On the back cover it is written that he is a Professor of history in Minnesota State University at Mankato. Also there, it says that the book is based on archival and published diplomatic and military sources and provides comprehensive perspective on the diplomatic and military aspects of the Balkan Wars.
But probably he is not anymore at this university, because he is not listed in the faculty staff of the department of history. But I did find ratings of his Balkan wars class given by his students. The most recent ones were from 2005.
I haven't read the book, but some readers on Amazon give mostly positive remarks, though there is one who says the author used mainly Bulgarian sources. However, if you do a search in Google books for the book and "works cited" you get this:

http://www.google.com/books?id=ZSllg...Lo-g#PPA158,M1

One can get an idea of the sources he used.

Anyway, his name sounds American, he lives in Minnesota and is a professor. So, looks like no Bulgarian connection. It seems to me he wouldn't have risked his reputation by allowing himself to be biased towards Bulgaria and negative towards all the rest.

[Vasot]

This belief,that the Greek army was completely surrounded in Kresna and its destruction was imminent,and the story with the telegram also are a kind of urban legends amongst all the Bulgarian historians,in order to justify their claim that Bulgaria was unlucky,the Bucharest treaty was unfair because Bulgaria lost territories not in the battlefield e.t.c.

Υep i agree
Their failure was really painfull for their bulgarian pride so they started these fake nationalist crappy stories to justify their failure as unfair and unlucky.

Typical Bulgarian nationalists...
Their swallow pride is so big that they prefer making fairy tales and stupid excuses than admiting a clear failure from their part

[Demetrius Doukas]

Yes exactly I'm tired of reading similar stories in the bulgarian school books..................

[sutapanaki]

Originally Posted by Demetrius Doukas

Yes exactly I'm tired of reading similar stories in the bulgarian school books..................

Oh, but then it is very easy, just don't read (Bulgarian and as it turns out, American too) books. If you're not open to alternative views, why do you have to torture yourself?!?