dont you slavic me!!!!

[Cadmus]

Not even the elite German army “Prince Eugene” which was defeated by Bulgarians during World War II.

When and where did you defeat them?
And besides that you joined those fellas from 41-44 remember only when the Soviets came you chickend out and realised you were going to be incorporated into the Soviet republic so thats when you decided to fight the Germans instead to save your own behind.

And also its time you give back the Trebenisthe golden masks and kraters and all other you robbed from Fyrom its not your land nor will it ever be..

You steal history the Peresadyes/Oessaretes/Dessaretes/Encheleans and Pelasgian lake dwellers are not your history but lived hundreds of miles away from your territory, hence you have nothing in common with the artefacts you stole...give em back will ya?

[kostas68]

[quote=spa05akw;87174]

Originally Posted by Andrew

1) Even heard of Basil the Voulgaroktonos "Bulgar Slayer" ???
2) In the Macedonian Struggle ..we Greeks butchared your Komitatzi ass for sure !!
3) 2nd Balkan War you were the loosers against Greeks and Serbs ..isn't that right ??

Originally Posted by spa05akw

1. He was NOT the slayer cause he killed nobody. To blind is not the same to kill. Besides, you were just lucky at some moments. Bulgarians won most wars and butchered you and you obeyed Bulgars. It is he who win the whole match is victorious - not he who weans a round!!!

As you said,it doesn't matter who wins one battle but who wins the war,and the fact is that Bulgarians lost both,battles and war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Spercheios
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kleidion

Originally Posted by spa05akw

Not to mention Khan Khrum who butchered you to last man and made a drinking cup from his cranium..

If you're proud only for the victory it's OK,but it seems that you feel more proud for this <drinking cup> that Khrum made from the Byzantine emperor's skull.You consider this act so heroical and glorious,as your comitadjis consider glorious to slaughter babies and old women and burn alive in ovens Greek teachers and priests.

Originally Posted by spa05akw

2. WHAT A CHILDISH COMMENT! Bulgaria was alone against 4 of you, COWARDS. When you talk about a strength then talk about MAN to MAN fight.

It wasn't our fault that Bulgaria was alone against Greece and Serbia (don't mention Turkey and Romania,they entered the war actually when Bulgaria was already defeated).You should blaim your greedy leadership,that demanded from Greece and Serbia to cede territories that they had liberated themselves.Bulgaria started the 2nd Balkan war attacking Greece and Serbia.

Originally Posted by spa05akw

Furthermore, I see you are ashamed by losing against Bulgarians and try to boast about nothing. It is Piece Treaties and the pressure from the Big Powers that saved your asses in ALL wars (don´t TWIST things as convenience to you), because Bulgarians retreated

I can hardly find a Bulgarian victory over Greece in modern time (the last one was in Football World Cup of 1994 in USA),except you consider as <victory> when your big protectors and allies,the Germans who occupied Greek Macedonia allowed you to to enter there and commit many attrocities against the Greek population.Especially in the regions of Serres,Drama and Kavala,no one forgets your <victories>,when during WW1 your army sent as hostages in Bulgaria 30.000 Greek civilians,of whom only the half survived.Really,did you made with their skulls also drinking cups?

Originally Posted by spa05akw

You NEVER won against Bulgarians on the battle fields.

I think Bulgaria won against Greece in modern times only in football matches and since you mentioned something about <Peace Treaties and the pressure from the Big Powers that saved your asses in ALL wars> read below whose arse saved the great powers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_incident_at_Petrich

Originally Posted by spa05akw

Not even the elite German army “Prince Eugene” which was defeated by Bulgarians during World War II.

Bulgarians against Germans in WW2?????Where did you see this movie?

[Mihalakis]

Originally Posted by spa05akw

FOR A WHILE. BULGARS ALWAYS WIN IN THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
You are childish and do not know what is your mission. Because I promise you that Bulgarians have most glorified history of wars and also won most wars. If I wanted to boast about all great Bulgarian events, I would have to sit here for months and right to you a whole Academic Compendium. So cut off the bullshit. You are just picking up some sequences. read first the WHOLE Bulgarian history. For now don´t bather me.

Let me tell you few things about your BULGARIANS, not from yesturday but from TODAY.
Your GLORIOUS BULGARIAN MEN work in Greece for 30 euros per day sweaping rubish. Your GLORIOUS BULGARIAN WOMEN work as prostitutes for 40 euro per pop!
Your young women become the mistresses of fat ugly slizie disquisting Greek men who buy them pantyhowes in return. Our pensioners retire in Sofia where their 600 euro per month slary gives them a glorious life screwing the mother and the daughter who own the apartment they are renting for 20 euro per motnh..fucking included!!
You want to know more about your race today??

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kostas68

I can hardly find a Bulgarian victory over Greece in modern time (the last one was in Football World Cup of 1994 in USA)

!!!

Originally Posted by Kostas68

Bulgarians against Germans in WW2?????Where did you see this movie?

Bulgarian version of "Indiana Jones and the riders of the lost ark" ???

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

[quote=spa05akw;87180]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

LOL dont forget the ww1!

And oelelelele Majka mi= ooooooh mama mia ! there is no right translation for it in english...

•IT IS EXACTLY HOW YOU SCREAMED WHEN BULGARIANS SLAUGHTERED YOU IN MOST WARS. You were subjeckts during Bulgarian Empires. And you also lost wars in the battlefield during Balkan wars.

•And in both World War I + II Bulgarians fucked you, you lost wars on the battle field again, and the ONLY thing which saved you asses were Big Powers and Bulgarian retreat-ment from your lands due to PIECE TREATIES. Get it to you head for once. THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL DEFEAT OF BULGARIANS. Hahahaahahah……………

Settle down mate. No need for such behaviour.

[sutapanaki]

I used to like this thread (with the exception of tankistabg). But the last posts here took the bad language direction again. Although this was not initiated by the Bulgarian side this time, I can not say I'm extremely proud of its response.

It is true of course that Bulgaria lost some of its wars and won many of its battles. Most notably in the distant past was the lost war against Basil II "the Bulgar slayer". Then in the recent past a big loss was the second Balkan war, after the magnificent performance during the first Balkan war. I don't think there is a second opinion whether it was or was not a loss. It was not that much a loss coming from the poor performance of the Bulgarian army but one cause by the stupidity of the politicians, some of which were not even Bulgarians. BTW, I will post next some material about the second Balkan war. What happened during that war defined the steps Bulgaria took during the I and II WW and the sides it chose to join. At least this is my opinion. After the Balkan wars Bulgaria was looking for ways to return its lost territories and it sided with those who promised this. Anyone would do this, I guess. It turned against Germany at the end of WW2, after being its ally exactly for the same reason - not to lose more territories after the war as it happened after the WW1. About Prinz Eugen SS devision you can look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_SS_...on_Prinz_Eugen

I think that it is not correct to post a map of Bulgaria for year 1265 and use it as a proof of how much Greeks (Byzantium rather) kicked Bulgaria's ass. I can as well put a map here from the time of Tsar Simeon just for you to see how much we kicked some other ass too. Plus the mere fact that on that map of 1265 Bulgaria occupies lands that belonged to Byzantium before speaks quite eloquently by itself.

Are you guys sure that those commitas cried "Majka mi" and not "Mamka ti" ?

[pankration]

Is spa05akw claiming that the Bulgarians were the Ottoman Empire? He may be right on certain points but he is taking things out of context and using the tried and true strategy of Skopje: convince yourself first and then convince the rest of the world. Although I am hardly an angel myself on the topic of aggressive language, I have to agree that we might be letting this one slip away. Spa05akw, you need to calm down. You're already on the right track by presenting your evidence; you have to expect people will check it out. I for one, am less interested in the rants than I am in the relationship between Greece and Bulgaria; one that seems to be very complicated. I also know and met Bulgarians living in Greece and for all intents and purposes, good, kind people who spoke the language and worked for an honest living. So let's not bury ourselves in vitriol. Present arguments and let's look at them.

[sutapanaki]

Here are some excerpts about the second Balkan war from the book

The True History of the Balkan Wars by prof. B.Dimitrov

It is a bit long, but I guess those who are interested will read it anyway:-)

The prerequisites for the war between the Balkan allies hide in the extreme reluctance of Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek
ruling politicians to back off the already set goals in territorial aspect. Neither one of them was willing to consider
the goals of the others, the already signed treaties, the will of the population from the liberated territories...
The reason for the Serbian claims to the occupied part of Macedonia was the impossibility to achieve its main goal -
access to the Adriatic sea by the accession of North Albania. Austria-Hungary strongly opposed this because it considered
North Albania as a zone for its future expansion. The direct war threat played its role. The Great Powers were not ready yet
for a world conflict and they exercised their influence over Greece and Serbia....
The chauvinistic Serbian circles at that time considered Kosovo and Sandjak as too small territorial gains for the Serbian
efforts during the first Balkan war and made claims over almost the whole territory of Macedonia occupied by the Serbian armies.
As argument for not considering the already signed treaty with Bulgaria they stated that Bulgaria didn't send 100,000 troops
to help the Serbs in Macedonia as per the treaty. And the Serbs themselves over-complied with the treaty by sending 40,000 troops
and 100 heavy artillery for the siege and attack of Odrin (Edirne).
Unfortunately, the above is true, although it should not follow from it that 600,000 Bulgarians should live in the Serbian kingdom
and the bigger part of Macedonia should be separated forever from Bulgaria. It can only really be regretted that Bulgaria didn't
order 100,000 troops into Macedonia, who undoubtedly would had reached Bitola and Ohrid through Stip-Veles-Prilep. The attempt to
spill less Bulgarian blood at Odrin on the other hand led to the call for the not-needed 40,000 Serbian troops. Even without them
the Bulgarian army had two times superiority in troops and artillery...
The Greek claims were fueled by the fact that the Bulgarian government unwittingly refused to make a treaty for the redistribution
of the territories in spite of the Greeks insistence for that in September 1912. Taking advantage of the engagement of the Bulgarian
forces to the East, of the weak Turkish forces in the Aegean Macedonia and not lastly of the corrupt Turkish commandants
of Thessaloniki and Ioannina, almost without casualties (there were 6000 Greeks killed in the first war compared to the 33500 Bulgarian
casualties) Greece occupied the territories up to and including Thessaloniki. Taking advantage of the not numerous Bulgarian troops
in Aegean Macedonia in April and May, Greek detachments sneaked through the rare Bulgarian lines and took villages in the
territories occupied by the Bulgarians. On May 4 one such detachment was met by the Bulgarian troops and although they were less in number,
after heavy fighting they completely destroyed the Greeks. This hardened the wide spread opinion in Bulgaria that the Greek army was weak
and poorly trained and Bulgaria might not seriously consider Greece. But we have to acknowledge that the Greek claims were not big.
Greece wanted to keep Thessaloniki and South Macedonia (which were already occupied by its forces) and to fix the border 20km north of
Thessaloniki. In this case Bulgarian territories would had included Kukush (Kilkis), Serres, Drama, Kavala, Voden (Edessa) and in
part of those towns there was substantial Greek population.
Being afraid of direct clash with the Bulgarian army which numbered 650,000 (the armies of Greece and Serbia together were 600,000)
Greece and Serbia signed a secret treaty which had and objective of establishing a common border in Bitola-Resen and common actions
against Bulgaria if it took military steps against any one of the sides signing the treaty. Greece and Serbia obliged themselves to
offer Bulgaria a border from Gevgeli, south along the Vardar, downt to Kukush (Kilkis) and along a line passing south of the city to
a bay north-east of Thessaloniki and in this way the important port of Kavala remained in Bulgarian hands. The Serbs fixed a border
with Bulgaria north along the Vardar up to the parallel with Stip and from there along the Bregalnitsa and Zletovska rivers till the
Osogovo Mountain. This border in fact completely coincided with the demarcation line between the Serbian and Bulgarian armies in East
Macedonia.
Bulgaria claimed, of course the whole territory of Macedonia (the disputed and undisputed parts) and Thessaloniki. This was based on
ethnographic and historic rights - prevailing Bulgarian character of the population in these areas, the inclusion of this lands in the
Medieval Bulgarian state and Bulgarian movements in the recent past - the struggle for independent Bulgarian church (Exarchste) and
national liberation (IMORO).
The opinion of the Bulgarian population was divided on the question of how to solve the dispute with the allies. The government of
Geshov hardly waited for the peace treaty in London to resign due to "health" reasons of its leader. The russophil Danev was elected
for prime minister. He sided with that part of the society which insisted for the arbitration of the Russian Emperor, although the
Serbian claims were not possible to fulfil in their maximum. Similar to the Romanian case, the Emperor most probably would had divided
the occupied by Serbia territories in two along the line Veles-Debar in which case the Northern part with Skopie, Kumanovo and Tetovo
would had remained in Serbia and the Southern part with Veles, Bitola, Prilep, Resen, Struga - in Bulgaria. Unfortunately, far louder
and numerous was the group in the Bulgarian society which pleaded for the whole of Macedonia and insisted on refusal of the Russian
arbitration. Unfortunately, in this group of politicians, military figures and intellectuals was also tsar Ferdinand.
The states from the future Entente naturally made huge efforts to preserve the Balkan alliance because in case of a world conflict it
would give them 1.5 million soldiers and certain control over the natural resources of South-Eastern Europe. English and French politicians
publicly stated that the country which started the war first would be severely punished by the Great Powers which would support
politically and if needed militarily the attacked. Russia also joined that opinion and undoubtedly told Ferdinand that in the case of
Bulgarian military action would urge Romania to attack Bulgaria. Having in mind that Turkey had not demobilized its army after the
London peace treaty it was clear that a Bulgarian action against Serbia and Greece would put her in war with all neighbours and with no
political and military allies among the Great Powers.
In this situation, even if unwillingly, the Russian arbitration should had been accepted or wait until Greece and Serbia attacked first.
It should be mentioned here that both those countries had considered this alternative. Bulgarian forces found with a killed Serbian
officer during the first day of the war printed proclamations by the Serbian king for declaring war against Bulgaria and only the
date was left blank.
On June 15 Danev eventually sent a delegation in St.Petersburg where a Balkan conference would had taken place for the Russian arbitration.
At this time Ferdinand did a horrendous mistake which many of his contemporary Bulgarian politicians would qualify as "criminal insanity".
The train with the delegation was stopped in Gorna Orjahovitsa...General Savov was ordered to command two of the 5 Bulgarian armies to
attack the Greek and Serbian forces facing them. Ferdinand didn't have war in mind but only a demonstration of force which ought to
make Greece and Serbia believe that Bulgaria would go all the way and make them more yielding in St.Petersburg. For the governments of
the two countries this was a nice gift and they took advantage of it to start large scale war along the whole demarcation line.
The war worsened extremely the international situation of Bulgaria. Estimating the value of the warring sides in geo-political
and military sense, Russia, Britain and France sided with Serbia, Greece, Romania and Montenegro. Bulgaria didn't get any diplomatic or
military help from Austria-Hungary and Germany. They relied even on Bulgaria being defeated because it would repel the country from the
Entente states and would include it in the Central Alliance...
In the beginning of the war the Bulgarian army had 656000 troops and 2000 artillery...However, close to half of the soldiers were from
the Turkish and Gypsy minorities as well as Bulgarians (Christians and Muslims) from the new territories and they did not have the solid
military training of the soldiers in the first Balkan war. Well trained soldiers on the other hand had been away from home for 9 months already,
they were tired and had lost some of their fighting spirit...
The Bulgarian forces were divided in 5 armies...(4 armies against the Serbs)
Second Bulgarian army faced the whole of the Greece's army which had two times superiority along the line of Valandovo-Dojran, Tahino lake,
Pravishte, Kavala. Second army's fighting ability was decreased because in its ranks were those ill trained soldiers from the minorities...
After the London peace treaty was signed the Bulgarian command left in East Thrace only weak militias. Against Romania, in spite of the
clear indications that it will enter the war against Bulgaria, there were no forces.
...The attack on June 16 had been devised as a show of force. It was undertaken by the weaker than the respective Greek and Serb forces
II and IV Bulgarian armies. But even they were stopped by Gen. Savov after achieving partial success...
...The other three Bulgarian armies entered the war at different times and their actions were hampered further by contradicting orders from Sofia.
Fifth army attacked the enemy in the region of Kriva Palanka and quickly defeated the main defences at Chupino. The next day Gen. Kliment Boyadjiev
took also the reserve positions at Retki Buki. Panic settled in the troops led by the Serb heir to the throne Alexander and part of them
fled to Kumanovo. However, the commander of fifth army Gen. Toshev received an order to withdraw to the border at Gjueshevo where he remained
till the end of the war.
The movement of third army in the direction of Nis started on June 24 - 8 days after the beginning of the war. Its forces, however, were divided
into two - to Nis and to Vranja. After 4 days the army reached Pirot and got an order to stop the advance. After heavy fighting, the group moving
towards Vranja reached the goal and also received an order to stop.
First army in the direction of Danube after heavy battles reached Knjazevac and came above Nis and Pirot. A little more effort and together
with third army Nis and Pirot could had been taken and Serb army in Macedonia cut off. But most unexpectedly first army received an order to withdraw
to the border, which it did till June 28. Till the end of the war first army repelled several Serb attacks of Vidin.
Big tragedy took place at the front of II and IV armies. Under the pressure from superior enemy forces IV army left Stip and Kocani and
fortified on the Kaliman plateau. Two Serbian armies of 5 and 3 divisions and another 10 Greek divisions started to advance against it on
July 4. In that 5 day battle the Bulgarian soldier showed once again what he was capable of. Thousands of Serb and Greek soldiers died
under the bullets and mortars of the Bulgarians without achieving even a minimal success. 8-th infantry division started a tactical advance
on the flanks and occupied strategic heights above the Serbian forces. Weakened, Greeks and Serbs withdrew several kilometers and dug in a defence.
II Bulgarian army was attacked by the Greek armies on June 19 at four places along the front - Dojran, Kalinovo, Kukush and Lahana. Bulgarian
forces fought heroically. Especially stubborn was the defence of two Bulgarian units at Kilikis (Kukush), 32 km from Thessaloniki. It was attacked
by 4 Greek divisions which lost 10,000 killed i.e. more than Greece lost during the first Balkan war. In revenge the Greeks burnt Kukush and
expelled its population in Bulgaria. Fierce fightings took place also in Predela and Razlog. The Greek army advanced bravely after the
retreating II Bulgarian army along the Mesta (Nestos) and Struma (Strymonas)rivers, overcame the Kresna gorge and reached Gorna Dzhumaya (Blagoevgrad).
There, on July 11 the Greek army was stopped at last at the old border.
Meanwhile on June 26 the Romanian army entered Bulgaria proclaiming that its only goal was to get "compensations". Against that army fought only
local field guards and the Romanians occupy the whole of North Bulgaria, crossed the Balkan mountain, entered the Sofia valley and stopped at
Vrazhdebna. The Turks also entered into East Thrace and with unheard cruelty killed thousands of Bulgarians and expelled the remaining population
behind the old Bulgarian-Turkish border...
In this critical situation the Danev government resigned and on July 4 a new government was formed led by Dr. Radoslavov, and it pleaded for peace. The
Romanians insisted that the negotiations were held in Bucharest. Armistice however did not take place.
In the meantime, the Bulgarian command planned an operation for encircling and destroying the too much stretched along Struma Greek army which had distanced
itself by 150km from its bases. This was decided to happen in the Kresna gorge as the enforced II army engaged the enemy in front of Gorna Dzhumaya
while IV army turned around at Kalimantzi and attacked on the flanks along Struma. Than it had to join forces with the Samokov and Rhodopa units
which had to take Razlog and the Predela pass before that.
The Bulgarian counter offensive started on July 14. IV army took Pehchevo, Negrovo and mt.Zanoga appearing on the hill tops above the Struma. From the East
the Bulgarian forces took Razlog and entered the Predela pass, repelling successfully the counter attacks of two Greek divisions.
On July 17, II Bulgarian army started advancing in the front. On July 18 six Greek divisions (120,000 soldiers) were completely surrounded. This was almost half
of the Greek army which until that moment had lost nearly almost a quarter of its forces. Its destruction in the next 1-2 days raised no doubts. The rear supply
units of the Greek army were left behind and part of them destroyed at Krupnik and Breznitsa.
Panicking, the Greek prime minister arrived in Bucharest and wanted immediate peace agreement. Bulgarian delegates who did not know about the Kresna victory
immediately agreed with relief thinking that the Greek army was continuing its advance towards Sofia. A legend says that a telegram about the
encircled Greek army was handed to a Bulgarian delegate but he neglectfully put it in his pocket without reading.
But let's be fair. Even if he had read the telegram and had stalled the negotiations and as a result Bulgaria had achieved the full destruction of the Greek
army in the Kresna Gorge, the overall critical situation wouldn't had changed much. Romanians were in front of Sofia with no forces to oppose them. The
Turks also threatened to advance in the Maritza (Evros) Valley towards Plovdiv. The Turkish navy could devastate at any moment Burgas and Varna.
Bulgarian navy ships had fled to Sevastopol and were disarmed there by the Russians. The war was lost.
On July 28 in the Romanian capital a peace treaty was signed. It divided Macedonia between Greece and Serbia. The Greeks acquired 34000
square km and the Serbs - 26000. Bulgaria got only the Struma valley down to the Belasitsa and Slavyanka as well as Struma region. Bulgaria
also got Western Thrace i.e. the territory between Mesta (Nestos) and Maritsa (Evros) rivers. But it lost South Dobrudza along the line
Tutrakan and Balchik. East Thrace was also lost as the Turks returned only the Black sea cost from Kiten to Rezovo, Strandza, the Southern slopes
of Sakar mountain and Svilengrad district.
As a result of the two Balkan wars Bulgaria increased the territory by 15,000 square km and lost 72,000 soldiers and officers i.e. 5 killed
for each sq. km gained. Pessimists asserted that Bulgaria sustained a huge crash of its national ideals. Optimists considered this as something
temporary and thought the things could be reversed in the brewing world conflict. Indeed, with its 112,000 sq.km of territory, 5 million
population and access to two seas (Serbia, in spite of its territorial gains was still a smaller country without access to the sea) and well trained
army, Bulgaria remained the most desired ally on the Balkans by the two blocks of the Great Powers.
After the war, the country and the government had to direct their thoughts and efforts towards the almost 300,000 refugees from Thrace,
Macedonia and Dobrudza, who didn't have home,property, land and work. Most painfully felt was the liquidation of the church, monastery and
school network of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia and Thrace.

[Cadmus]

About Prinz Eugen SS devision you can look here:

Excuse me but cant you read well?

There it says they surrendered to the Bulgarians , not that they were defeated by them!
And in 45 they were jsut a hand full of men, nothing mentionable..
What are you trying to prove? Bulgaria was a major strategical master like the German armed forces or British army?

Besides do you agree with the fact that you Bulgarians should return the Trebenisthe treasures to Fyrom immediately because its not yours nor your culture...

Bulgaria is asking for retaliation of the same magnitude...(if Bulgaria doesnt return them i sincerely hope and its already done that your counry is being systematically robbed of its ancient treasures )

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

Here are some excerpts about the second Balkan war from the book

The True History of the Balkan Wars by prof. B.Dimitrov

It is a bit long, but I guess those who are interested will read it anyway:-)

The prerequisites for the war between the Balkan allies hide in the extreme reluctance of Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek
ruling politicians to back off the already set goals in territorial aspect. Neither one of them was willing to consider
the goals of the others, the already signed treaties, the will of the population from the liberated territories...
The reason for the Serbian claims to the occupied part of Macedonia was the impossibility to achieve its main goal -
access to the Adriatic sea by the accession of North Albania. Austria-Hungary strongly opposed this because it considered
North Albania as a zone for its future expansion. The direct war threat played its role. The Great Powers were not ready yet
for a world conflict and they exercised their influence over Greece and Serbia....
The chauvinistic Serbian circles at that time considered Kosovo and Sandjak as too small territorial gains for the Serbian
efforts during the first Balkan war and made claims over almost the whole territory of Macedonia occupied by the Serbian armies.
As argument for not considering the already signed treaty with Bulgaria they stated that Bulgaria didn't send 100,000 troops
to help the Serbs in Macedonia as per the treaty. And the Serbs themselves over-complied with the treaty by sending 40,000 troops
and 100 heavy artillery for the siege and attack of Odrin (Edirne).
Unfortunately, the above is true, although it should not follow from it that 600,000 Bulgarians should live in the Serbian kingdom
and the bigger part of Macedonia should be separated forever from Bulgaria. It can only really be regretted that Bulgaria didn't
order 100,000 troops into Macedonia, who undoubtedly would had reached Bitola and Ohrid through Stip-Veles-Prilep. The attempt to
spill less Bulgarian blood at Odrin on the other hand led to the call for the not-needed 40,000 Serbian troops. Even without them
the Bulgarian army had two times superiority in troops and artillery...
The Greek claims were fueled by the fact that the Bulgarian government unwittingly refused to make a treaty for the redistribution
of the territories in spite of the Greeks insistence for that in September 1912. Taking advantage of the engagement of the Bulgarian
forces to the East, of the weak Turkish forces in the Aegean Macedonia and not lastly of the corrupt Turkish commandants
of Thessaloniki and Ioannina, almost without casualties (there were 6000 Greeks killed in the first war compared to the 33500 Bulgarian
casualties) Greece occupied the territories up to and including Thessaloniki. Taking advantage of the not numerous Bulgarian troops
in Aegean Macedonia in April and May, Greek detachments sneaked through the rare Bulgarian lines and took villages in the
territories occupied by the Bulgarians. On May 4 one such detachment was met by the Bulgarian troops and although they were less in number,
after heavy fighting they completely destroyed the Greeks. This hardened the wide spread opinion in Bulgaria that the Greek army was weak
and poorly trained and Bulgaria might not seriously consider Greece. But we have to acknowledge that the Greek claims were not big.
Greece wanted to keep Thessaloniki and South Macedonia (which were already occupied by its forces) and to fix the border 20km north of
Thessaloniki. In this case Bulgarian territories would had included Kukush (Kilkis), Serres, Drama, Kavala, Voden (Edessa) and in
part of those towns there was substantial Greek population.
Being afraid of direct clash with the Bulgarian army which numbered 650,000 (the armies of Greece and Serbia together were 600,000)
Greece and Serbia signed a secret treaty which had and objective of establishing a common border in Bitola-Resen and common actions
against Bulgaria if it took military steps against any one of the sides signing the treaty. Greece and Serbia obliged themselves to
offer Bulgaria a border from Gevgeli, south along the Vardar, downt to Kukush (Kilkis) and along a line passing south of the city to
a bay north-east of Thessaloniki and in this way the important port of Kavala remained in Bulgarian hands. The Serbs fixed a border
with Bulgaria north along the Vardar up to the parallel with Stip and from there along the Bregalnitsa and Zletovska rivers till the
Osogovo Mountain. This border in fact completely coincided with the demarcation line between the Serbian and Bulgarian armies in East
Macedonia.
Bulgaria claimed, of course the whole territory of Macedonia (the disputed and undisputed parts) and Thessaloniki. This was based on
ethnographic and historic rights - prevailing Bulgarian character of the population in these areas, the inclusion of this lands in the
Medieval Bulgarian state and Bulgarian movements in the recent past - the struggle for independent Bulgarian church (Exarchste) and
national liberation (IMORO).
The opinion of the Bulgarian population was divided on the question of how to solve the dispute with the allies. The government of
Geshov hardly waited for the peace treaty in London to resign due to "health" reasons of its leader. The russophil Danev was elected
for prime minister. He sided with that part of the society which insisted for the arbitration of the Russian Emperor, although the
Serbian claims were not possible to fulfil in their maximum. Similar to the Romanian case, the Emperor most probably would had divided
the occupied by Serbia territories in two along the line Veles-Debar in which case the Northern part with Skopie, Kumanovo and Tetovo
would had remained in Serbia and the Southern part with Veles, Bitola, Prilep, Resen, Struga - in Bulgaria. Unfortunately, far louder
and numerous was the group in the Bulgarian society which pleaded for the whole of Macedonia and insisted on refusal of the Russian
arbitration. Unfortunately, in this group of politicians, military figures and intellectuals was also tsar Ferdinand.
The states from the future Entente naturally made huge efforts to preserve the Balkan alliance because in case of a world conflict it
would give them 1.5 million soldiers and certain control over the natural resources of South-Eastern Europe. English and French politicians
publicly stated that the country which started the war first would be severely punished by the Great Powers which would support
politically and if needed militarily the attacked. Russia also joined that opinion and undoubtedly told Ferdinand that in the case of
Bulgarian military action would urge Romania to attack Bulgaria. Having in mind that Turkey had not demobilized its army after the
London peace treaty it was clear that a Bulgarian action against Serbia and Greece would put her in war with all neighbours and with no
political and military allies among the Great Powers.
In this situation, even if unwillingly, the Russian arbitration should had been accepted or wait until Greece and Serbia attacked first.
It should be mentioned here that both those countries had considered this alternative. Bulgarian forces found with a killed Serbian
officer during the first day of the war printed proclamations by the Serbian king for declaring war against Bulgaria and only the
date was left blank.
On June 15 Danev eventually sent a delegation in St.Petersburg where a Balkan conference would had taken place for the Russian arbitration.
At this time Ferdinand did a horrendous mistake which many of his contemporary Bulgarian politicians would qualify as "criminal insanity".
The train with the delegation was stopped in Gorna Orjahovitsa...General Savov was ordered to command two of the 5 Bulgarian armies to
attack the Greek and Serbian forces facing them. Ferdinand didn't have war in mind but only a demonstration of force which ought to
make Greece and Serbia believe that Bulgaria would go all the way and make them more yielding in St.Petersburg. For the governments of
the two countries this was a nice gift and they took advantage of it to start large scale war along the whole demarcation line.
The war worsened extremely the international situation of Bulgaria. Estimating the value of the warring sides in geo-political
and military sense, Russia, Britain and France sided with Serbia, Greece, Romania and Montenegro. Bulgaria didn't get any diplomatic or
military help from Austria-Hungary and Germany. They relied even on Bulgaria being defeated because it would repel the country from the
Entente states and would include it in the Central Alliance...
In the beginning of the war the Bulgarian army had 656000 troops and 2000 artillery...However, close to half of the soldiers were from
the Turkish and Gypsy minorities as well as Bulgarians (Christians and Muslims) from the new territories and they did not have the solid
military training of the soldiers in the first Balkan war. Well trained soldiers on the other hand had been away from home for 9 months already,
they were tired and had lost some of their fighting spirit...
The Bulgarian forces were divided in 5 armies...(4 armies against the Serbs)
Second Bulgarian army faced the whole of the Greece's army which had two times superiority along the line of Valandovo-Dojran, Tahino lake,
Pravishte, Kavala. Second army's fighting ability was decreased because in its ranks were those ill trained soldiers from the minorities...
After the London peace treaty was signed the Bulgarian command left in East Thrace only weak militias. Against Romania, in spite of the
clear indications that it will enter the war against Bulgaria, there were no forces.
...The attack on June 16 had been devised as a show of force. It was undertaken by the weaker than the respective Greek and Serb forces
II and IV Bulgarian armies. But even they were stopped by Gen. Savov after achieving partial success...
...The other three Bulgarian armies entered the war at different times and their actions were hampered further by contradicting orders from Sofia.
Fifth army attacked the enemy in the region of Kriva Palanka and quickly defeated the main defences at Chupino. The next day Gen. Kliment Boyadjiev
took also the reserve positions at Retki Buki. Panic settled in the troops led by the Serb heir to the throne Alexander and part of them
fled to Kumanovo. However, the commander of fifth army Gen. Toshev received an order to withdraw to the border at Gjueshevo where he remained
till the end of the war.
The movement of third army in the direction of Nis started on June 24 - 8 days after the beginning of the war. Its forces, however, were divided
into two - to Nis and to Vranja. After 4 days the army reached Pirot and got an order to stop the advance. After heavy fighting, the group moving
towards Vranja reached the goal and also received an order to stop.
First army in the direction of Danube after heavy battles reached Knjazevac and came above Nis and Pirot. A little more effort and together
with third army Nis and Pirot could had been taken and Serb army in Macedonia cut off. But most unexpectedly first army received an order to withdraw
to the border, which it did till June 28. Till the end of the war first army repelled several Serb attacks of Vidin.
Big tragedy took place at the front of II and IV armies. Under the pressure from superior enemy forces IV army left Stip and Kocani and
fortified on the Kaliman plateau. Two Serbian armies of 5 and 3 divisions and another 10 Greek divisions started to advance against it on
July 4. In that 5 day battle the Bulgarian soldier showed once again what he was capable of. Thousands of Serb and Greek soldiers died
under the bullets and mortars of the Bulgarians without achieving even a minimal success. 8-th infantry division started a tactical advance
on the flanks and occupied strategic heights above the Serbian forces. Weakened, Greeks and Serbs withdrew several kilometers and dug in a defence.
II Bulgarian army was attacked by the Greek armies on June 19 at four places along the front - Dojran, Kalinovo, Kukush and Lahana. Bulgarian
forces fought heroically. Especially stubborn was the defence of two Bulgarian units at Kilikis (Kukush), 32 km from Thessaloniki. It was attacked
by 4 Greek divisions which lost 10,000 killed i.e. more than Greece lost during the first Balkan war. In revenge the Greeks burnt Kukush and
expelled its population in Bulgaria. Fierce fightings took place also in Predela and Razlog. The Greek army advanced bravely after the
retreating II Bulgarian army along the Mesta (Nestos) and Struma (Strymonas)rivers, overcame the Kresna gorge and reached Gorna Dzhumaya (Blagoevgrad).
There, on July 11 the Greek army was stopped at last at the old border.
Meanwhile on June 26 the Romanian army entered Bulgaria proclaiming that its only goal was to get "compensations". Against that army fought only
local field guards and the Romanians occupy the whole of North Bulgaria, crossed the Balkan mountain, entered the Sofia valley and stopped at
Vrazhdebna. The Turks also entered into East Thrace and with unheard cruelty killed thousands of Bulgarians and expelled the remaining population
behind the old Bulgarian-Turkish border...
In this critical situation the Danev government resigned and on July 4 a new government was formed led by Dr. Radoslavov, and it pleaded for peace. The
Romanians insisted that the negotiations were held in Bucharest. Armistice however did not take place.
In the meantime, the Bulgarian command planned an operation for encircling and destroying the too much stretched along Struma Greek army which had distanced
itself by 150km from its bases. This was decided to happen in the Kresna gorge as the enforced II army engaged the enemy in front of Gorna Dzhumaya
while IV army turned around at Kalimantzi and attacked on the flanks along Struma. Than it had to join forces with the Samokov and Rhodopa units
which had to take Razlog and the Predela pass before that.
The Bulgarian counter offensive started on July 14. IV army took Pehchevo, Negrovo and mt.Zanoga appearing on the hill tops above the Struma. From the East
the Bulgarian forces took Razlog and entered the Predela pass, repelling successfully the counter attacks of two Greek divisions.
On July 17, II Bulgarian army started advancing in the front. On July 18 six Greek divisions (120,000 soldiers) were completely surrounded. This was almost half
of the Greek army which until that moment had lost nearly almost a quarter of its forces. Its destruction in the next 1-2 days raised no doubts. The rear supply
units of the Greek army were left behind and part of them destroyed at Krupnik and Breznitsa.
Panicking, the Greek prime minister arrived in Bucharest and wanted immediate peace agreement. Bulgarian delegates who did not know about the Kresna victory
immediately agreed with relief thinking that the Greek army was continuing its advance towards Sofia. A legend says that a telegram about the
encircled Greek army was handed to a Bulgarian delegate but he neglectfully put it in his pocket without reading.
But let's be fair. Even if he had read the telegram and had stalled the negotiations and as a result Bulgaria had achieved the full destruction of the Greek
army in the Kresna Gorge, the overall critical situation wouldn't had changed much. Romanians were in front of Sofia with no forces to oppose them. The
Turks also threatened to advance in the Maritza (Evros) Valley towards Plovdiv. The Turkish navy could devastate at any moment Burgas and Varna.
Bulgarian navy ships had fled to Sevastopol and were disarmed there by the Russians. The war was lost.
On July 28 in the Romanian capital a peace treaty was signed. It divided Macedonia between Greece and Serbia. The Greeks acquired 34000
square km and the Serbs - 26000. Bulgaria got only the Struma valley down to the Belasitsa and Slavyanka as well as Struma region. Bulgaria
also got Western Thrace i.e. the territory between Mesta (Nestos) and Maritsa (Evros) rivers. But it lost South Dobrudza along the line
Tutrakan and Balchik. East Thrace was also lost as the Turks returned only the Black sea cost from Kiten to Rezovo, Strandza, the Southern slopes
of Sakar mountain and Svilengrad district.
As a result of the two Balkan wars Bulgaria increased the territory by 15,000 square km and lost 72,000 soldiers and officers i.e. 5 killed
for each sq. km gained. Pessimists asserted that Bulgaria sustained a huge crash of its national ideals. Optimists considered this as something
temporary and thought the things could be reversed in the brewing world conflict. Indeed, with its 112,000 sq.km of territory, 5 million
population and access to two seas (Serbia, in spite of its territorial gains was still a smaller country without access to the sea) and well trained
army, Bulgaria remained the most desired ally on the Balkans by the two blocks of the Great Powers.
After the war, the country and the government had to direct their thoughts and efforts towards the almost 300,000 refugees from Thrace,
Macedonia and Dobrudza, who didn't have home,property, land and work. Most painfully felt was the liquidation of the church, monastery and
school network of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia and Thrace.

How much true and unbiased could be considered a history of the Balkan wars,written by a Bulgarian professor?As much as if it was written by a Greek one or by a Serbian.Only a neutral historian could be objective and impartial.If someone who doesn't know anything about the Balkan history read this,he'll conclude that the Bulgarians were the <good guys> who fought against the <bad> Greeks and Serbians and they would defeate both of them
if they weren't attacked by the Romanians and the Turks.History doesn't mention in a war <good> and <bad> guys,only winners and losers,the rest is fairy tales.I think this mr.Dimitrov uses some naive arguments in order to justify every Bulgarian act,especially when he writes that when the Bulgarian king decide to attack Greece and Serbia,he <didn't have war in mind but only a demonstration of force which ought to make Greece and Serbia believe that Bulgaria would go all the way and make them more yielding in St.Petersburg>!Even a child wouldn't say that!I have also some other remarks:

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

Taking advantage of the not numerous Bulgarian troops
in Aegean Macedonia in April and May, Greek detachments sneaked through the rare Bulgarian lines and took villages in the
territories occupied by the Bulgarians. On May 4 one such detachment was met by the Bulgarian troops and although they were less in number,
after heavy fighting they completely destroyed the Greeks.

If i'm not wrong,i know what incident mentions here Dimitrov.It was in the region of Mt.Pangheon,today Serres prefecture,where the nearby river Strymonas was the border between the Greek and the Bulgarian troops.It was a conflict between 2-3 Greek platoons,reinforced by some 50-60 local Greek villagers and an entire Bulgarian batallion,where the Bulgarian triumph and the destruction of the <overwhelming> Greek troops was total:Almost all the villagers were killed,20-30 others who didn't participate in the battle were later executed and some houses were burnt.

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

In revenge the Greeks burnt Kukush and
expelled its population in Bulgaria

And what about the Bulgarian attrocities in Serres and Drama?

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

On July 17, II Bulgarian army started advancing in the front. On July 18 six Greek divisions (120,000 soldiers) were completely surrounded.This was almost half of the Greek army which until that moment had lost nearly almost a quarter of its forces.Its destruction in the next 1-2 days raised no doubts. The rear supply units of the Greek army were left behind and part of them destroyed at Krupnik and Breznitsa.Panicking,the Greek prime minister arrived in Bucharest and wanted immediate peace agreement.Bulgarian delegates who did not know about the Kresna victory immediately agreed with relief thinking that the Greek army was continuing its advance towards Sofia. A legend says that a telegram about the encircled Greek army was handed to a Bulgarian delegate but he neglectfully put it in his pocket without reading

This belief,that the Greek army was completely surrounded in Kresna and its destruction was imminent,and the story with the telegram also are a kind of urban legends amongst all the Bulgarian historians,in order to justify their claim that Bulgaria was unlucky,the Bucharest treaty was unfair because Bulgaria lost territories not in the battlefield e.t.c. Off course this Bulgarian belief could never be proved true.History is written only by facts that have happened,not by assumptions,even if they seem to be reasonable and the only real fact in 2nd Balkan war is that Bulgaria was defeated in battlefield.I also believe that if Alexander the Great hadn't died young,he would conquer Italy,so instead the Roman empire there would exist a Greek empire,but this is an assumption that could never be proved true.The fact is that the Roman empire existed.

Originally Posted by sutapanaki

Bulgaria claimed, of course the whole territory of Macedonia (the disputed and undisputed parts) and Thessaloniki. This was based on
ethnographic and historic rights - prevailing Bulgarian character of the population in these areas, the inclusion of this lands in the
Medieval Bulgarian state and Bulgarian movements in the recent past - the struggle for independent Bulgarian church (Exarchste) and
national liberation (IMORO).

Instead blaming the fate,the Great powers e.t.c you should blame better your greed,that was what destructed you.On the same ethnographic and historic rights were based also the Greek claims and after the 1st Balkan war,Bulgaria was occupying a large area between the rivers Strymonas/Struma and Nestos/Mesta inhabited predominantly by Greek populations and,the most important she had acquired an outlet in Aegean Sea as she always desired,the port of Kavala.

Although Bulgaria had gain lands without any ethnographic and historic right,she wanted also Thessaloniki from Greece.