How should Vardarska be partioned?

[Slayer]

Makedonec wrote

First of all, if Greeks had some commen sense, they would understand that "fyrom" is perhaps a better friend to them than Albania or Bulgaria would ever be. Your only friendshiop with Serbia comes out of both your desires to eliminate Macedonia of the map, in the past and in the present.

If Skopia had any common sense you would not be pissing all your neighboors off, especialy Greece and realise that if you continue this dangerous path that your leaders continue to take then you're country will collapse within 10 years.

Who needs who more?

[Makedonec]

During Yugoslavia times, Alexander the Great statues were not allowed believe it or not.. ever since 1991 there has been attempts to build them, but there has been lack of support by the central government which has been scared of "hurting greece's feelings", but thats not the case anymore, especially not since USA recognised the Republic of Macedonia.

Regarding the name 'macedonia', tell me how long has thessaloniki airport been named 'macedonia airport'? do you know?

"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"

Georgi Paulevski

The Macedonian Conflict, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, New Jersey, 1996: p.50


January 28, 1867

To the Editor of "Makedonija" newspaper: ...The Greeks and the greacomans have met the newspaper with sorrow, since they always tried to hellenize the Macedonians, destroying also the Archibishopric of Ohrid -The Spark of Our Future. Yet, however hard they have tried to stop us from making progress, they could not entirely uproot the feelings of the Macedonians that they are Macedonians. T.I. Kusev, Makedonija, Istanbul, Nbr. I (1/28/1867)


1890

Karl Hron: "The Nationality of the Macedonian Slavs": ...From my own studies of the Serbo-Bulgarian dispute I came to the conviction that the Macedonians are an individual nation, both by their history and their language; thus, they are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians... Karl Hron, Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens, Wien 1890, S. 4-5, 15-17, 20, 22,26

1902

Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902


1902

Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev ...Let us not expect freedom either from the Greeks or the Bulgarians; it is we, the Macedonians, who should fight for our Macedonia ourselves... Neobjaveno pismo, Nova Makedonija, (Skopje), XXIV, nbr.7744 (May 5 1968), p.8

1903

Victor Berard on the Macedonians. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the Macedonians. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the Macedonians. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.

1995

The 80-page human rights violation report on Greece entitled "Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece" was published in May 1994. After visiting Aegean Macedonia, the part of Macedonia that Greece took in 1913 after the partition of the country, the Human Rights Watch/Helsinki concluded:

"Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been persecuted and convicted for their peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government - followed and threatened by the security forces - and subjected to economic and social pressure resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly. Ultimately, the government is pursuing every avenue to deny the Macedonians of Greece their ethnic identity."



...macedonians "were created by communism"???? hahahaha, whatever gets ur pants wet.

[pankration]

What Macedonian "language"? Even the most ardent skops acknowledge that no language survived from the days of Alexander even if there was a different one. If you want to speak Serbo-Bulgarian go ahead! The Human Rights Watch reacts rather than investigates. Even the quote from 1995 only mentions "several Macedonians" having been persecuted for their views and the article doesn't specify what they did or how they were punished. And like it or not, it is well documented that Tito, in an effort to consolidate influence in the Balkans "created" a false ethno-identity for the people of the area now called FYROM and yes they were called Macedonians. And guess what, my pants are dry because unlike you I'm not waist-deep in bullshit.

[akritas]

Makedonec do you have any photo of the table in the basement of the Great Alexander Statue at Prilep?
I focus in the text.

[Istor]

GP: "I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"

hahahahahahahahahaha !!

They called Solun as Thessaloniki !!

[Makedonec]

@Istor, Georgi Pulevski said that statement in the 1860s. Im not trying to say that todays macedonians are the exact macedonians of ancient times, most of us feel that we are atleast partly decsended from the ancient macedonians, thats why that popular macedonian writer made that statement. There are many simmilar statements from the 1800s made by others who felt macedonian. This quote was only posted to prove to you guys that Tito nor anybody cannot just create a nationality out of the blue. The only nationality Tito tryed to create was a "yugoslav" one, but he failed.
Tito recognised the macedonians because he was a Croatian and he didnt want Serbia to be great but infact wanted equal rights for all nationalities, with recognised states but within the ideals of a poweful Yugoslavia.

As far as the name of Thessaloniki is concerned. Even i laugh at people who tell me the name is Solun and not Thessaloniki, since any educated person would understand that it is the same name, Solun is the short version of Thessaloniki in the slavic languages. Macedonians pronaunce the greek version of the name TeSOLUNiki, then we just call it Solun for short.

Nobody is saying that the modern macedonian language is or has anything in common with ancient macedonian, which in itself is very unkown (wether it was or was not derived from greek is irrelevent here).

Im trying to look at this argument from a realistic, not nationalistic point of view. So is todays macedonian language slavic? Yes and No. First of all its slavic coz its spoken form is simmilar to other slavic lanuages, second of all its slavic coz it has been classified as a south-slavic language by modern scholars. So on the outside everything about this language looks slavic, i agree. Howether, in reality there are arguments why it shouldnt be thought of as entirely slavic. First and foremost, the Thesaloniki Brother Saint Cyril and Methodius, for some greeks, for others slavs, for some bulgarians, for some macedonians (non-greek).. regardless of what their real nationality may have been im sure you will all agree with me on the following.

How did Cyril and Methodius construct an alphabet, a language, for people how had previously no alphabet? They would have had to MAKE A SLAVIC LANGUAGE. To make a "slavic language" you have to take letters from other languages. Analysing evidence will point you to the conclusion that the modern so called "slavic languages" in great deal use greek letters! Infact most of the letters in todays macedonian language originate from so called hellenic language. We may not speak ancient greek or macedonian, but we use many of the same letters Alexander the Great used. In modern macedonian, slightly over half of the spoken language is of typical non-slavic word origins. So although you could say that macedonian is a slavic language, half of its spoken form is of non-slavic origin, and most of its letters are of ancient hellenistic language (maybe ancient macedonian ??)

This so called "slavic language and alphabet" which Cyril and Methodius created, was FIRST AND FOREMOST taugh to the Ohrid tutors Kliment and Naum around 1150years ago. Kliment and Naum formed the first University in Europe (atleast in eastern europe). It is from the territory of R.Macedonia that these so called and by me "wrongly termed slavic languages" spread. Is it perhaps possible that the language which Cyril and Methodius of Salonika and Kliment and Naum from Ohrid tought most of eastern europe was perhaps some form of greco-macedonian? Then why was it termed slavic? Thats another issue.

Although i feel macedonian and non-greek aswell as non-slavic, i do feel that modern macedonians have more connections to modern greeks than modern slavs, i could be wrong since we obviously have the slavic admixture, but 'The absense of Evidence is not Evidence of Absense'.

I do seem like a lost cause whois going nowhere, howether im trying to tell you guys that i have the right to be macedonian, regardless of the fact that i do not speak the ancient languages of the region. Modern Italians do not speak ancient latin, but it doesnt mean they cannot claim ancestry to the Romans. There is many more simmilar examples. What has happened to Ireland over the centuries is obvious. Ireland today is an english speaking country, so what will Ireland be in 1000years? Entirely english speaking with no evidence of Gailic ever existing there in the past. But does that mean that 1000years from now the Poms (English) can claim 'the irish are english, and have nothing in common with ancient ireland since they cannot speak celtic'? If you understand what im getting at, good... if not, you might one day.

@Akritas, thats the only pic i have at the moment...well i have another one but doesnt show whats written on the table.

@Pankration, i think i spoke enough regarding language issues.

[Makedonec]

To conclude on the origines of the modern language recognised as 'macedonian', its a mixture of slavic & greco-macedonian elements. Im not trying to say that gives me the right to claim ancestry to the ancient macedonians through spoken language, i previously said that ancestry isnt always determined by spoken language, but in this case modern macedonian could perhaps be atleast partially linked to ancient macedonian or greek.

[Euklid]

Originally Posted by makedonec

How did Cyril and Methodius construct an alphabet, a language, for people how had previously no alphabet? They would have had to MAKE A SLAVIC LANGUAGE. To make a "slavic language" you have to take letters from other languages. Analysing evidence will point you to the conclusion that the modern so called "slavic languages" in great deal use greek letters! Infact most of the letters in todays macedonian language originate from so called hellenic language. We may not speak ancient greek or macedonian, but we use many of the same letters Alexander the Great used. In modern macedonian, slightly over half of the spoken language is of typical non-slavic word origins. So although you could say that macedonian is a slavic language, half of its spoken form is of non-slavic origin, and most of its letters are of ancient hellenistic language (maybe ancient macedonian ??)

This so called "slavic language and alphabet" which Cyril and Methodius created, was FIRST AND FOREMOST taugh to the Ohrid tutors Kliment and Naum around 1150years ago. Kliment and Naum formed the first University in Europe (atleast in eastern europe). It is from the territory of R.Macedonia that these so called and by me "wrongly termed slavic languages" spread. Is it perhaps possible that the language which Cyril and Methodius of Salonika and Kliment and Naum from Ohrid tought most of eastern europe was perhaps some form of greco-macedonian? Then why was it termed slavic? Thats another issue.

Although i feel macedonian and non-greek aswell as non-slavic, i do feel that modern macedonians have more connections to modern greeks than modern slavs, i could be wrong since we obviously have the slavic admixture, but 'The absense of Evidence is not Evidence of Absense'.

You are very much in the right direction of understanding.

Cyrilus and Methodius constructed an alphabet by using the Greek-macedonian(if you may) letters and named it SLAVIC cause it was used to educated the Slavs of Macedonia(the region) up to Siberia and east to Germany.

The people of macedonia at the time who might at certain occasion could have benn predominantly slavic accepted this education and your official written literature began at that period by using a close derivative of the Greek alphabet.

If your little intermingle with the Macedonians, makes you Macedonian, then you large cultural attributed perpetuated by cyril and methodius makes you Greek even more.

However, the Slavs will never accept that cause it creates minority complexes. So how can you and the rest of your slavic compatriots actually accept the fact that your language is not Greek but Macedonian, when no Macedonian official has actually dealt with the Slav settlers.

Hellenic Byzantines, yes, but Macedonian?


Anyway, i am not very clear now, as am very busy.

I hope that you will get the context.

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Makedonec

This so called "slavic language and alphabet" which Cyril and Methodius created, was FIRST AND FOREMOST taugh to the Ohrid tutors Kliment and Naum around 1150years ago. Kliment and Naum formed the first University in Europe (atleast in eastern europe).

I have heared this argyment many times from your side. When you mean that you are the first that created a University what you mean with that?
The Greeks had at that time (I am not going further) several schools in Constantinople,Athens and Thessaloniki.So why you are the first that created any kind of University? And what was the name of it?

[Euklid]

Wait a minute you contradict your self greatly:

Originally Posted by makedonec

Analysing evidence will point you to the conclusion that the modern so called "slavic languages" in great deal use greek letters! Infact most of the letters in todays macedonian language originate from so called hellenic language.

You accept the fact that the Slavic language was created with a derivative of the Hellenic alphabet. And then you make asumptions:

Originally Posted by makedonec

In modern macedonian, slightly over half of the spoken language is of typical non-slavic word origins. So although you could say that macedonian is a slavic language, half of its spoken form is of non-slavic origin, and most of its letters are of ancient hellenistic language (maybe ancient macedonian ??)

This is exactly our point on which you fail to acknowledge.

Your Slavic language, is a derivative of the Greek(Macedonian-Ionian-Achaian-Doric) koine in other words.

And that is why it contains Hellenic words.

However these words do not approximate the Slavic language to the Macedonians. On the same way the English with approximately 49% of the words deriving from the KOINE, the French, latin, italian is the same.

Also 98% of the Medicinal dictionary is Greek.


Do you understand that you cannot approximate your Hellenic words with the Macedonian heritage cause(especially when your words are Greek[lingua franca of the Romans, Byzantines and Ottomans] that way the whole world that owes its dictionary to the Greek literature would claim descendancy of our Hellenic tribes.