Turkish Ethnic Cleansing.

[Reaper]

I am thinking of starting an article on it in the wiki. I will include the Istanbul Pogrom, Armenian Genocide and Kurdish attacks if I do. I will need help If I do this as it is a big article. Firstly I want to ask if you think it is worth it. I have been reading about the Pogrom, the Armenian Genocide ect all well detailed on Wiki and I think there is enough for a big Turkish Ethnic Cleansing article or Ethnic Cleansing In Turkey article with tags and links on all the aforementioned articles for it. What do you think, should I do this? Will it damage relations? Will it be counter productive?

[Hellas7]

I say no.

It maye start a chain reaction anyway (then everybody will start doing it), which will be a whole lot of crap.

I say leave it, all those things are well documented in there anyway. It seems fine to me.

[Reaper]

Yes, I agree to an extent and this is why I worry.

The reason I want/ed to do it is because us as Greeks know all these things. As a non Greek, esp growing up in pro-turkish country, (USA, UK ect) you may hear of an Armenian Genocide at some point in your life, maybe another 50 years later you think you hear of a Pontian Genocide ect. If this article is built, it is a place for anyone wanting to know what the Turks did last century is neatly listed and all referenced. If someone is defending or attacking their human rights record, you have a complete catalog availiable, where as now you need actually need to know individually about each act of cleansing because on the net, each act does not link to the next. There are pages on Pontians being attacked and killed, another about kurdish villages being wiped off the map, but no one article where all these acts are listed in order and sited properly.

I helped build the Anti Hellenism page. Recently someone deleted it, not because the references were wrong or flawed (as he claimed), he simply did not believe it. Now it is there as a piece of original research and people are learning about what the BBC gets up to ect. I feel this article would be far more defended by neutrals as it is 100% based on famous sourced material. The only problem is I think the Turks will HATE it severely./

[Kemalist]

Dear Reaper.

I wouldnt reccomend doing that because as Hellas7 pointed out it really will cause a chain reaction and thats the last thing we need. There are already a selection of anti-Turk and anti-Greek sites all over the web causing tention betweek the two communities, theres really no need to take this to wikipedia because it will get out of hand.

Although I have no problems with majority of your claims...The Armenian issue on the other hand is one that all Turkish people feel sensitive towards and one where our side of the story is never heard. I do not doubt that ALOT of Armenians got killed during WW1 however I can assure you that most of the Armenian videos and documents describing the events are totally one sided and fail to mention so much that was done by their own people that its difficult to take seriously. They never mention the Hunchak and Dashnak rebellion movements which is a travesty. There is so much evidece these rebellion movements existed from documents to the killings of governors, police chiefs and even the attempted assassination of Sultan Abdulhamid II. The Armeninans just claim to have formed a resistance but these rebellion movements were formed as early as 1887-90. We know they formed a resistance yet they fail to mention where they got SO many guns and weapons from. Russia! (since the Dashnak movement was formed in Tiflis, Russian Empire). Theres even proof of these rebellion movements in the Russian archives. There is little but no mention on the massacres the Armenians were responsible for during those times which is just absurd. The same kind of proof the Armenians have, the Turks also have on the Armenian massacres of Muslims. Pictures, documents, writings by missionaries...etc.

There is no way on earth that 1.5 million Armenians died in Ottoman Turkey. It is a proven fact. There was only around 1.5 million Armenians as a whole living in Ottoman Turkey at the time to begin with. These figure do not just come from Turkish sources but rather Western sources also including The French Yellow Book, Encyclopedia Britannica, Annual Register (London) and so on..

When the Ottomans were held by the British at the time (the occupying force) they tried their hardest to prosecute the Ottomans with the claims of the Armenians yet found them not guilty. The Paris Peace conference heard the Armenians' case and gave them nothing and said a genocide did not occur, the Armenians didn't accept and were given another try at the same conferance and yet again they were given nothing and were told a genocide did not happen. Its funny how the French said this only to change their minds almost 90 years later when they needed the Armenian votes.

The Armenians themselves dont know what happened because since the "genocide" their stories have changed time and time again often contradicting one another. At first they claimed 4 million Armenians had died, when this was ridiculed they agreed to Encyclopedia Britannicas 1918 edition to the figure of 600.000 Armenians dead. It's only with time and propaganda that the figure has risen to millions yet again.


Turkey keeps offering for historians from both sides to form a comittee and investigate the matter. They want the Armenians to open their archives so both Armenians and Turkish researchers can go in there and study these documents (the Turkish archives are open, some of which are even online regarding the Armenian-Ottoman relations). The Armenians refuse simply by saying that they know a genocide happened so they dont need to have it investigated, they refuse to open their archives to Turkish researchers. If they are so desperate to get a result and if theyre so sure that it did occur then I dont understand why they would hold back from an investigation which would obviously be for their own benefit. Everytime Turks provide documents or evidence it is just dismissed as propaganda because the Armenians have so much "proof" that not only contradicts the Turkish claims but also their own stories in the last 100 years!

If people were to look past the propaganda then they would see the questions that arise that are completely ignored by the Armenians. Turkey doesn't even deny a lot of Armenians got killed but they deny the numbers which Armenians claim because it is just ludacris to suggest 1.5 million people got killed. Turkey claims 300.000 people, Encyclopedia Britannica claims 600.000, I personally think it was higher then 300k but either way it is alot of people regardless.

I'm not trying to challange you nor am I trying to prove anything, I'm just fed up of watching and reading so many Armenian sources with them failing to mention anything they were responsible for. It is just sickening for them to ignore and turn a blind eye to their own wrong doings, refusing the opening of their archives while expecting Turkey to admit to "genocide". Like I said I know Turkey is no angel or innocent but the Armenians have changed their version of events SO many times that there is no way Turkey is ever going to admit to anything unless Armenians agree to an investigation by professionals.

Even the "Hitler quote" is questionable:

Historian of Armenian Descent Says Frequently Used Hitler Quote Is Nothing But a Forgery
Baden-Baden, W. Germany - Dr. Robert John, a historian and political analyst of Armenian descent from New York City, declared here that a commonly used quotation of an alleged statement by Adolf Hitler concerning the Armenian massacres was a forgery and should not be used.

Dr. John demonstrated how he had traced the original document in the Military Branch of the National Archives of the U.S.A. after being handed a folder bearing the quotation at a rally outside the United Nations building in New York following the Turkish-Greek war in Cyprus.

The quotation: "Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality.... For the time being I have sent to the east only Death's Heads units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children... Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

Dr. John showed slides of this document, undated and unsigned, with some words cut out of the last page. The statement was supposed to have been made at a meeting of the top German staff of the Obersalzberg on August 22, 1939. The document was released to the international press covering the Nuremberg War Crimes trials on Friday, November 23, 1945. The trials had commenced that Monday. The document was one of several made available to the press that day. Two-hundred-fifty copies were given to press correspondents, but only five copies were given to the 17 defense counsels - 24 hours before the Court convened on Monday!

Much later in the trial, the German defense lawyers were able to introduce the most complete account of the address, taken down by German Admiral Hermann Boehm, which runs to 12 pages in translation. There is no mention of the Armenians or the rest of the "quotation."

Dr. Robert John said he believed that the document was introduced to create a climate of hate which was needed to stifle the protests of eminent American jurists such as Sen. R. Taft and Chief Justice Harland Stone. He had discussed it with Gen. Telford Taylor, who had said, "I know the document you mean, I don't know its provenance, and I have not used it in my own work."

"We all believe that violence breeds violence," said Dr. John. "There has been an increase in Armenian violence since this false inflammatory statement was given publicly. Films like 'The Day After' are a form of violence, and should not be shown to children - who are unable to evaluate their content. Films about the "Holocaust" are a form of violence and are harmful to us as well as to Jews. There is a high probability that the surprising violence and brutality shown by the Israelis towards the Palestinians, may be a result of being frequently exposed to these old scenes. Just as parents who abuse their children have often been abused themselves."

Dr. John briefly traced the history of atrocity propaganda, particularly from the British - and later - American view. Real atrocities certainly occurred, but the deliberate fabrication and dissemination of atrocity stories increased the probability of their occurring. "Hate hurts the hater and hated. We are still living in the haze of distortions and actual horrors which occurred so long ago." he commented.

"The time has come to stop psychologically damaging ourselves and our children by "Holocaust studies" and Holocaust" museums," he continued. "The Armenian, the Jew, or the African, should not damage their development with a continual conditioning of hate, neither should spurious guilt be visited upon others. These negative preoccupations and obsessions are obstructing our evolution."

Dr. John, whose paper is entitled "Information and Misinformation," hails from Armenian parents who moved from New Julla, Iran to India. His father changed his name from Hovhanes to "John," and subsequently the family moved to England. Dr. John studies law in England and holds a doctoral degree in political science from London University. He is presently a contributor to the London, England based The Middle East Magazine monthly, and in addition to giving lectures, is a frequent contributor to numerous magazines and publications. He is also the author of Palestine Diary, and specializes in Middle Eastern issues, including the Palestinian issue.

Source:The Armenian Reporter, Vol. XVII, NO. 40 August 2, 1984
P.O. Box 600, Fresh Meadows, N.Y. Telephone: (718) 380-363

Hello to you all anyways, I just found this site while searching for articles on the Armenian question. I tried to post pictures (not of dead people but of old American/Armenian propaganda claiming 4 million people dead) and links with this post but I'm not allowed till I post more then 15 posts .