A question about Jesus and the Gospels

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by Ehetlaios

Faith to what?

Faith is behind evrything, even love. I do not need to get into the mechanics of this, if you are as free spirited as you so seem to be, you know even in your own path in life you have faith in something, whatever it may be, science, freedom, 12 gods etc....every move you make and thought you have is held by faith.

Simply, the belief in that ist all going to work out the way you think or hope it will.

[Alita]

The thing about Jesus is that He's the only person on Earth who ever seriously challenged people regarding their faith. Faith is not a word we can toss around easily. It means literally sacrificing your whole life for something you can't even see. The Bible states it as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1)

In my mind it is very simple. You either believe in something or you don't. If you don't believe Jesus Christ is God, then you don't believe in Jesus and are not a Christian. Jesus challenges people because he claimed that whoever doesn't believe he is God in the flesh does not believe in God either. Well I know many people who say they believe in God or a higher power but they don't want to have anything to do with Jesus. So the people who believe in Him go their way, rejoicing that they've found the Way, the Truth and the Life and that their eternal future is secure, while the people who don't believe go THEIR way, rejoicing that their minds are open and that they don't need the crutch of religion to cope with life. Both groups are convinced that they are right and the other group is wrong. Meanwhile, you have some from each group 'crossing the floor' and converting to the other side, kicking up some excitement for the rest and all this is going on in the middle of a religious melting-pot of terrorists, do-gooders, philosophers, breeders, activists, capitalists, psychopaths, environmentalists and politicians, each and every single one of them searching for the ultimate secret: the key to lasting happiness in life.

I guess instead of discussing faith, the question we should be asking is, how do we know we're not all completely

Seriously, we may just be food for the entertainment schedule of the gods.

[olvios]

Παιγνια του Διος-Games of Zeus

[Lakonian]

Alita, i dont think i have seen in recorded histoyr of another ancient culture especialy the Greeks trying to convince the other group there Gods are real and theres not. As a matter of fact, the Greek sfeard that the 12 Gods not always played on there side, for example, in some sources the Greeks always point out that the Lybians are sometimes favoured more than the Greeks due to the amount of sacrificing they commit.

Nor have i seen in ancient Greek religion, persecution on others, Greeks knew this would be impossible because they themselves challanged everything that was laid before with science, Pythagoras im sure would have tried to swallow that bitter pill of knowing he would have to weave religion with his amazing knowledge on numbers to convince others around him, you see, spirituality needs to walk hand in hand with science, otherwise we loose our human side, balance is the key.

The Church suppresses this, only accepts death as the will of "the"God.It simplifies our way of living and doesnt allow what is most gifted to us by say, the Gods if you like....FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND WILL (PROMETHEUS).

Overall, we must believe in something, but it seesm everything we believe in, we use to harm others.

Religion has been the most destructive tool since the birth of Christ, this, no one can deny.And this happens because of how little we actualy know about the purpose of life and death, imagination and fear takes over rational acting according to the philosophical principles.

Plato once said to his student, that he knew of some that retuned from death, Er the son of Armenius...read it, its Book 10 of the Republic....he goes on to explain the process of the afterlife and what awaits according to the myth of Er, his body didnt decay for 12 days and rose again to tell everyone of his journey.

Questioning is the path to the truth.

[Alita]

Originally Posted by Lakonian

Alita, i dont think i have seen in recorded histoyr of another ancient culture especialy the Greeks trying to convince the other group there Gods are real and theres not. As a matter of fact, the Greek sfeard that the 12 Gods not always played on there side, for example, in some sources the Greeks always point out that the Lybians are sometimes favoured more than the Greeks due to the amount of sacrificing they commit.

Nor have i seen in ancient Greek religion, persecution on others, Greeks knew this would be impossible because they themselves challanged everything that was laid before with science, Pythagoras im sure would have tried to swallow that bitter pill of knowing he would have to weave religion with his amazing knowledge on numbers to convince others around him, you see, spirituality needs to walk hand in hand with science, otherwise we loose our human side, balance is the key.

The Church suppresses this, only accepts death as the will of "the"God.It simplifies our way of living and doesnt allow what is most gifted to us by say, the Gods if you like....FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND WILL (PROMETHEUS).

Overall, we must believe in something, but it seesm everything we believe in, we use to harm others.

Religion has been the most destructive tool since the birth of Christ, this, no one can deny.And this happens because of how little we actualy know about the purpose of life and death, imagination and fear takes over rational acting according to the philosophical principles.

Plato once said to his student, that he knew of some that retuned from death, Er the son of Armenius...read it, its Book 10 of the Republic....he goes on to explain the process of the afterlife and what awaits according to the myth of Er, his body didnt decay for 12 days and rose again to tell everyone of his journey.

Questioning is the path to the truth.

I understand what you're saying. I don't believe it's God's will for people to kill each other either. Or to commit any evil acts. That's why in every religion there are consequences for things like murder, rape, theft etc.

I have heavily criticised the Greek Orthodox church in the past because of its stubborn refusal to quit following the system instituted by Jews. Only the Jews have a Holy of Holies: a place where only the priest and his attendants are permitted to enter. This goes totally against Christian doctrine, if you read the Bible carefully. In true Christian belief, the role of the human priest is redundant, because Jesus is our High Priest, in the order of Melchizedek. So there is no need to confess our sins to a priest, just to Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain of the temple was torn in two (the curtain that divided the Holy of Holies from the place where the general congregation gathered). This means that there is now no need to have a place in church that is separate from the congregation, because all people are acknowledged to be equal in both virtue and sin, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So why does the Orthodox church still have this separate place? Do they deny this part of the Bible?

Also, as "there is now neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for all have become equal in Christ", women are equal to men in virtue. So why are women not allowed in the Iero? In a church that was fully following the Bible, there should not even be an Iero! In ancient Greece, women got to act as priests in the temples of the gods and so fulfil their spiritual destiny, if that's what their souls yearned for. What choice do women of spiritual bent have in the Orthodox church today? To marry a papa and become a papadia?

I grew up in and respected our church for many years, but when I actually sat down and read the whole Bible myself, it gradually dawned on me that our church is more full of chauvinistic tradition and nationalism than biblical truth. It is a tradition that excludes women and other Christian denominations and sets itself up to be the only right religion, just like Catholicism and Islam. In this sense, the Jews are way beyond us because at least they respect each other's factions (liberal, conservative, Orthodox). It seems it's only the Christians and Moslems that fight and kill each other. Ginomaste rezili kai kala kanei o kosmos pou mas misei!

I believe I have a personal relationship with God and I don't believe God is a male, but both male and female. In this sense, I understand how the ancient Greeks had deities of both sexes. But they still regarded women as inferiors, morally and intellectually, and this has not changed.

Finally, you mentioned freedom and knowledge. Everybody wants to be free, but what do you say to those people who want to be free in a way that harms other people? I'll give you an everyday example. What if one mother doesn't want to have to discipline her kids and would rather visit the beauty salon every day, go out to clubs with friends and party? She's free to do that. But what if her kids grow up without any boundaries and turn into criminals who harm other people? You see, the mother's freedom is society's slavery. Every day we hear of elderly people who feel like prisoners in their homes because they are too afraid to go outside, in case they're mugged or harmed. Most of the kids who do this stuff are on drugs. But the drug dealers want to be free too! Many of them were abused as kids, abandoned, tricked into taking drugs - until they saw a way out: to repeat the pattern and become drug dealers themselves. They don't think they're doing anything wrong because all they can feel is a relief that life for them is better now than it was and it's someone else who has to take the crap for once. And before you say that everybody knows it's wrong to sell drugs, remember that not so long ago homosexuality was thought to be wrong, as was fornication. Today these are accepted and cherished 'freedoms' of the individual. How do we know what we consider wrong today won't be similarly celebrated as a 'freedom' tomorrow? Can you guarantee our society will stay the same?

When you have no absolute, life becomes a meaningless ocean of relativity and chaos reigns.

One thing I've learnt so far is that in life, the person who loves the most, hurts the most. The virtuous suffer and the evil survive. This pattern cannot be broken. People will always be selfish, cruel and perverse. The thing about Christians is that they've accepted this and can live their lives happily, regardless.

Take care file.

[Ehetlaios]

Originally Posted by Alita

Seriously, we may just be food for the entertainment schedule of the gods.

Switch "gods" with "ierateia".

[Euklid]

My opinion is that Neo-pagan/Christian antithesis is bullcrap.

To Patriarxeio Ierosolymon pane na mas to kleisoune, kai an to kleisoune tha exei epiptosi arnhtikh se olous toys Ellines.

Thymastai ti egine sthn Alexandreia?

Oi ellines xristianoi i oxi prepei na douleyoume parea, oxi na mas douleyoune gia na ta vazoume metaksy mas.

[olvios]

My opinion is that Neo-pagan/Christian antithesis is bullcrap.

I agree 100000%
Συμφωνω και επαυξανω

[olvios]

Dont forget Agesilaus had to force the delphic oracle by going to dodona first and taking a prediction from Zeus telling him to make the expedition and delphi was going to say no so he asked delphi Does apollo agree with his father Zeus?
They could not refuse and thus attacked persia.Politics and religion ride in the same cart.Aside from this the Dodona priests were more sensitive to the needs of greece than the delphic ones were.Or simply the delphic was bought of like the rest of the greek states that attacked sparta on persian bribes thus betraying greece and forcing agesilaus to return.

[Lakonian]

Alita,


I agree towards the end of your post, freedom can cause chaos, but you need to understand logic is in place here, we must all controll ouselves, if you compare this beween those who dont you will see the majority is that logic is the winner.
Drugs, Alchohol, Murder, Rape is aprt of our society, we cannot take this away, the day we do is the day we have harmony on earth, this is the goal, you see at the end of the day we cannot just kill the wicked, we cannot just banish them to hell as the church god would because this goes against gods greatest virtue, forgiveness....how can a loving god still turn his children away into hell because he was influenced by society, everyday we imitate art and art imitates life, its a never ending process, we are vegetables infront of TV, we show more faith to a box then we do of the words of our ancestors....the point at the end of the day is the msg was given to us by GREEKS...virtues..who here can say they follow these forever..but yet if we all did think about it...this world would be a better place.

Plato said Good and Evil we must have knowledge of at the same time, one without the other we will never know goodness...therefore we must experience things and from there we take the right path, i, we CHOOSE...a drug addict makes a choice after that first shot if he should walk away, a murderer( not a psychopath) must have the strength to turn himself in if he has a guilty mind...etc Logic plays a good part in this aswell, but only if we have some sort of education on the topic.

At the end of the day we have choice, if this is taken away it makes the mind willing to always commit the wrong, because its curios, it longs to feel it, the "what if".
This in one way or another have all experienced, i thank we have some sort of freedom and will to do things, thus we can seperate wrong from right.Experience is the key to conclusions in life, the man/woman we choose to be for the rest of our lifes, but there lies ahead, another chance to change things, even in the last minute, i would like to think this is who god is, because if we are his creation, then there is some of him in us, therefore he/she is as guilty us as, because being all knowing, would know we can cause great harm, and great goodness....the church thinks otherwise, they say good is pure, i say god is everything, infinity...your mind could melt to try and grasp the purpose of him being....

As for your thoughts on how women were treated in ancient greece, in Sparta in many cases lived higher than a man, or equal.... Virtue and everything thats is good is symbolised by a women Areti Kelsou this can be seen in Celsus Library in Ephesos today in Turkey.

Olympics were held seperate for women aswell.

The only negative thing is they couldnt vote.

Aristotle says the virtues are harmonized:

νοῦς τῶν ἀρχῶν (nous tōn archōn) - understanding of substance,
ἐπιστήμη (epistēmē) - science,
σοφία (sophia) - wisdom,
τέχνη (technē) - practical craft,
φρόνησις (phronēsis) - practical mind)
and ethic (built by custom;
main:
ἀνδρεία (andreia) - courage,
σωφρoσύνη (sōphrosynē) - temperance;
property-based:
ἐλευθεριότης (eleutheriotēs) - generosity,
μεγαλoπρεπεία (megaloprepeia) - goodwilling;
honor-based:
μεγαλoψυχία (megalopsychia) - pride,
φιλoτιμία (philotimia) - assertivity,
πραότης (praotēs) - control of anger;
social:
εὐτραπελία (eutrapelia) - wittiness,
ἀλήθεια (alētheia) - truthfulness,
φιλία (philia) - friendliness;
political:
δικαιoσύνη (dikaiosynē) - justice)

Follow these and we are on the right track...but who does, honestly.

Know Thyself Gnothi safton.

No one actualy knows why this was written on the temple at Delphi, or what it actualy is trying to say, although suggestions have been made.

Perhaps the message is if you look inside yourself you can confront yourself and take the path you must to achieve light, perhaps know god, the purpose of life/universe.... untill you accept who you are you are bound to just being dictated by lifes random curve balls.

Theseus
Perseus
Herakles
Jesus (Isous)

and others have taken mythological journies which have unlocked something about life and death...we must unlock this metaphoric tales, why do we simply call it a story to put your kid in bed with? why do we fear to unlock this side of our ancestors?