A question about Jesus and the Gospels

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Lakonian

Well if you look at Hercules and Socrates life they both sacrificed themselves for reasons which project Christ like deeds.

We have Hercules, who made wonderings confronted himself and accepted he made sins in life, he then took a cleansing path which involved the 12 labours for man kind, or perhaps to find his way to imortality.

Socrates on teh othetr hand was potraid as a sinner and a corruptor of youth or for brain washing etc...Jesus to was potraited as this by the Rabi...condemned to death by the Greek courth, Socrates was also asked by one of his pears to escape with them, Socrates refused and welcomed death as new life, Christ was also asked to escape death he refused for the same reason...........

Yeah I see your point but they are both very far from anyting that could be compared to the notion of Christ.

Socrates was a philosopher and from what I know, nothing was ever written about him being related to the notion of God and while Herakles was indeed portrayed as Zeus' son, there are more than a few reasons to believe that he was an actual historic figure instead of God's son and that when Euemerus said that "myths are history in diguise" actually had Herakles in mind as an example.
Check out the 2nd post in this thread so that you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Lakonian]

I agree my friend, but you see we are talking about the symbolic side, i use Socrates because he to in a way is a myth, he never actualy wrote anything, we hardly know anything of his origin, i sometimes believe he was created as crypto symbol in Platos writings...but thats for another subject, my point is in life, before Jesus we already had notions of Christ, what would be the point of keeping the story the same..you see the trick is in the meaning of the Christ...SACRIFICE...Isis, Orpheus, Dionysus, Socrates, Leonidas the list goes on, and many non Greek myths contain a Christ..a saviour if you like....im talking about the symbolism. Socrates always spoke of the ONE as did many other philosophers, Our pantheon was controlled by ONE force, that is why Greek never limited themselves to the ONE, its impossible when it possess everything in and out, what made the ONE? Nothing they say, its self made impossible because scientificaly speaking everything is made from something else ONE within the other..LOGOS.

Our ancestors argued these things over and over...dont take the 12 gods in flesh, they never did...it was symbolic, thats what i wanna know, whats the big deal.....what is the meaning of all this?

Hermes Trismegistus was 2000 year B.C and an actual figure in Greece, he was the father of Alchemy( read it up_ Sir Isac Newton has actualy used him in all his works...he has even translated the ancient Greek text...I think Jesus is a symbol for something...Sun? Energy? he returned to the one? became the one? is god? we are god? my head hurst...me go sleep.....

[Lakonian]

Other Christ like notions which our ancestros had were Mithras, which was a god that ascended into heaven.This then became a practice in Greece as the MYSTIRIA of MITHRAS.Several stories exist concerning the birth of Mithras. Some stories say that he sprang from a living rock or a tree. One sculpture found on Hadrian's Wall depicts Mithras hatching from a "Cosmic Egg." Another story claims that he was born of a virgin on December 25. This date was celebrated as the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Some depictions of his birth show shepherds in attendance, while others show only two torchbearers. Sounds like Jesus to me. Mind you the practise of this cult was like 300 years before Christ was born, who knws when the myth was pread across Greece. Perhaps O Isous came there to anitiate himslef and learn not to fear death?

Attis also has christ liek notions is his story.

This is why i question Christianity, even in religion, Helenics are ignored for there contribution to probably the most influential practice on earth.

I question.

[Alita]

Originally Posted by Lakonian

Hi, dont mean to go way out of Hellenic topics, but this figure has influenced not only Hellas but the whole world. So my question is this.

What was Jesus doing between the day he was born, and well the last few days. Please dont reply with an answers such as "he was making stools and tables" or "he went to find god".

Nobody can answer your question. There is too little evidence today to have a conclusive answer. Surely you see this? I think you have to look inside your own heart and decide what you personally believe and don't worry about what other people believe.

For the record, I believe He was lying low between 12 and 30. Now don't laugh at me, but I've heard some pretty far-out stuff in astrology that something called The Second Saturn Return occurs at age 28: this is supposedly when the planet Saturn is in the exact same position as it was at a person's birth; it usually means a change in one's life, so their years up to 30 can be very unstable and upsetting. Maybe Jesus waited until this period was over. Don't forget that if He was who He claimed to be, then He was meant to be a model for all humanity. What kind of example would He want to show us? First of all, allegiance and respect towards family. He would have honoured His father and mother. He would have helped Joseph and Mary and provided for His younger siblings until they were old enough to work. What's wrong with Him having been a carpenter for a while? And think of this: Every day, when He walked into that workshop, He would have been confronted with the reality of His future destiny: To be nailed to two pieces of wood. Even then, God was preparing Him for what He had to do.

Another thing. The Bible doesn't mention Joseph during Jesus' ministry. This probably means that Joseph died before Jesus turned 30. This would have freed Jesus from His obligation to His earthly father and allowed Him to concentrate on serving His eternal Father, God. Even Alexander the Great had to make this decision. At some point, you've got to cut the ties loose and leave your family and their restrictions behind and create your own path, following the road that has been set out for you. This, I believe, is what Jesus wanted to model for human beings. He even said, in the gospels, that "Whoever loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me." (You can find the exact passage in any online concordance).

They say Jesus died around 33? Now they say Mark was the first Gospel, then Mathew Luke and John followed deriving there writing naturaly from his Mark mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple which happened in the year 70 A.D right, the gospels came much later then that year....we have gap of 40 decades or more....why?

Again, here, I think we really need to put ourselves in those men's shoes. Imagine being in Israel at that time and witnessing first-hand Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Imagine how you would react. Would you close yourself in a room and start writing? Imagine the electrifying excitement you would feel and the heaviness of the obligation on your shoulders to go and preach the gospel near and far. If you read the book of Acts, you will get a clear picture of this excitement the apostles felt. They just wanted to GET OUT THERE! To reach the unsaved and be witnesses to the greatest miracle ever done on earth. These were simple men; what they went through had a profound effect on them. They wanted to share it. They had a fire in their hearts, they had passion and drive and they had the Holy Spirit, Who performed miracles among them and guided them wherever they went. Through the Holy Spirit, they remembered every single event in the life of Christ that had vital significance and when they got too old to run around preaching, they sat and wrote their accounts of Jesus.

If you think of how DNA is read by our bodies, it can be an analogy (hopefully not too far-fetched!) Not one piece of information is lost in the transcription process, and yet, DNA can be packaged by our cells into tiny, compact chromosomes that look like so many random pieces of fluff. They just sit there, until it is time for the DNA to be unpacked and read. It is the same with the gospels. All the events in the life of Christ must have seemed a big blur to the apostles. Yet, the Holy Spirit, like some great Translator, unpacked all this information (into different languages too) and the apostles were able to recall each event, step by step, with no information being lost.

This is the believer's explanation. If you want a non-believer's explanation, I'm sure there are many you could find, with many different theories going into great detail about just what conspiracies went on to ensure the writing of a religious propaganda document.

I mean Jesus at this time would have been a power figure, and no one bothered to be by his side and take accounts. No historias! Not even a Greek or a Roman historian to write about this man while he was alive! Why?

Of course there are histories. Many Greeks were in Israel at the time of Christ and many more witnessed the gospel being preached in Thessaloniki and Greek cities in Asia Minor by the apostles. In Acts, you can read about what happened when Peter (or Paul) visited Athens. This alone convinces me that the Bible is true. It is a perfect example of how Athenians of that time would have reacted to the arrival of the apostles. And as for the rest of the Greeks who became believers, they passed accounts down by word of mouth. Why do you think we dye eggs red at Easter today? It is because of a miracle that happened TO Greeks IN Greek folklore, that GREEKS remember and treasure, but which was not recognised by the Jewish writers of the New Testament and so does not appear in the Bible.

Jesus did heaps of stuff which isn't in the Bible but which Greeks talk about today. One example is He encountered a person who was practising magic and He told them that their magic would be successful, but their souls would never find eternal rest. Everything that is claimed has some basis in truth. You cannot just make something up and have people believe it. It has to have at least a little bit of truth in it, because it comes from an idea. Every idea has some merit to it.

So, just as Jews have the Talmud today, which is a collection of their oral commentaries, but which you won't find in the Old Testament, Greeks too have an oral history of Christianity which you won't find in the New Testament. This is before even beginning to get into the post-Roman era of Greek saints and the books they wrote, each one a witness to the transforming power of God in their lives.

Why do we so confidently walk into a church and think we know whats going on? Why do we wanna believe so much about something we dont even understand? What ever happened to being practical like our forfather taught us, Socrates?

Good point. Why DO we walk into church and not question? Why do we not have access to the books and texts that our priests read? Why aren't we more like the Jews, who actually have classes to study their religion every week? The way we're going, we won't be Orthodox Christians for much longer because its meaning will have become completely lost to us. I say this: Question everything. There is always safety in truth. So if you don't feel safe, if something doesn't add up, always question. Only when your soul is completely at peace can you either accept a verdict or admit to no solution.

I hope I have not come on too strong on this topic. I've also always wondered about this stuff and this seemed a good opportunity to voice some of my thoughts.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Cheers friend.

[Lakonian]

Interesting theory Alita. I like some of your conclusions about Jesus. But again we can come to the final conclusion, his point, his visions, his goal and his word has been carried out by our people ( the Hellenics) there is no point in arguing this because we would take up most of this forum.

Your conclusions are good from a beleivers point of view, and if you believe, well the mind runs and invents whatever it can to make it as real as possible, im not putting you down, but lets face ist so many years after Christs death we have these apostles who feel now is the time to start writing ? what for?

There is nothing behind Christianity but faith, and yes thats a powerful thing, but it can renender you blind at the same time, not allowing your mind to be free, it restricts you from facing the truth and the only truth.

Jesus doesnt say a word of what the Greeks had achieved in term od democracy which Jerusalem didnt have at that stage, he never spoke of the spirituality of other cultures let alone Hellas, or the Plato or Socrates who overshadows him, even in the LOVE sector, for Socrates said the highest of virtues is real LOVE...which is what Jesus was trying to get though to everyone in his life time.

This is my though, i beleiev in Jesus, i cannot deny him because even if he is a symbol, he is a magnificant one at that. I believe he turned around what we were heading for thank to our Roman brother...pft....he saw a world that would be ruled by slavery, without freedom of love, a world of lust.

I thank him for bringing a much needed injection of free philosophy to us, but he didnt bring anything new,,he arose teh Helenic spirit which was in darkness due to the WAR lovers the Romans.

And that is why Greeks drew closer to this faith, but along the way, the Church was there to make sure it once again took away the freedom , to restrict the truth, ad it does it well. For good or for bad...that im not sure of.

I beleive Christ was acombination of crypto symbolics wrtings that the Greeks had already, its funny how after the Greek and Roman domination, and all the influenec of teh Greeks would have had on the Jews this Cjrist comes along to preach what we already had. LOVE & FREEDOM and the belief in RE-INCARNATION.

I respect Isous with all my heart, i even have a statue of him along with Socrates Plato and Aristotle...

The Church is what i stay away from.




I

[Ehetlaios]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Well Plato in his Timaios does indeed mention a "Creator"

I am a bit ignorant about Orpheus and Plotinos, as I have not studied them yet, but I read Timaios very recently and I have an opinion.

Someone who reads Timaios and believes it's a prechristian Bible stays only in the basics.

Plato does not try to define god in his work. In fact he tries to explain how the human body works, that's why you'll read many things about anatomy, male and female organs, he even gives a very cool and accurate meaning about the eyesight and the way it's used.

That's to understand the kind of difference and the peak of knowledge our forefathers had reached...

As for the "Demiourgos" thing, Plato believed that there may be some higher power behind life for everything to work as it works. His opinion. But because it suits christians today should they steal this word from Timaios and ignore the rest of the book?

It's as absurd as if a christian nowadays says that whenever Homer wrote "theos" (referring to a certain god, mainly Zeus) in the Illiad and the Odyssey, he actually refers to the unnamed christian god that the average christian person calls "theos".

[Ehetlaios]

Originally Posted by Lakonian

There is nothing behind Christianity but faith

Faith alone does nothing, no matter how we like to make our words beautiful and say "I respect everyone who has faith in something, whatever that is".

Faith will not save you from sickness or death.

Determination and science will.

[Lakonian]

Originally Posted by Ehetlaios

Faith alone does nothing, no matter how we like to make our words beautiful and say "I respect everyone who has faith in something, whatever that is".

Faith will not save you from sickness or death.

Determination and science will.

I dont realy agree with that. Determination is a part of FAITH, which ever way look at it. All greeks had faith, some rode in name of Zues other in the name of Athena some just for FREEDOM (Spartans/Athenians)
...at the end of the day, its faith and love that pushes us to our limits.

[Ehetlaios]

Originally Posted by Lakonian

Determination is a part of FAITH

Faith to what?

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Not really the one to answer your questions but here are some thoughts..

Well Plato in his Timaios does indeed mention a "Creator" (δημιουργὸς) several times, Plotninos speaks of the "One", Orpheus talks about (Μῆτιν, Φάνητα, Ἐρικεπαῖον·) being not only 3 powers of the same God but actually three unique entities that complete eachother indicating something related to the notion of the "holy trinitry".. these among several others, are all thoughts which later gave birth to Christianity..

Besides Doinysus, which was a God and the story of his ressurection, I don't see why you'd consider Herakles or Sokrates someone comparible to "Christ".

Plato talks often about the creator or the god but he mainly refers to Zeus, not a christian god. I noticed this in "Logos yper tou adynatou" and was troubled about it.