The word barbarian in the Ancient Greek Linguistics

[akritas]

I have heard many Greeks and not Greeks that the word barbarian (in Greek varvaros) called the people that:

1-Were not Greeks
2-They didn’t speak the Hellenic language or the Greek dialects

Many ancient writers (especially Greeks) used this term in them work to describe other nation (usually the Persians and Pelasgians).
But some others Greeks used to insult other Greeks (e.g. Athenian Demosthenes against Macedonians, Thoukidedes against Epirotans e.t.c.)
But what from the above is true?

The Greek word 'barbaros' does not mean 'barbarian' in the modern sense; it is not a term of loathing or contempt; it does not mean people who live in caves and eat their meat raw. It means simply people who make noises like 'bar bar' instead of talking Greek. If you did not speak Greek you were a 'barbarian', whether you belonged to some wild Thracian tribe, or to one of the luxurious cities of the East, or to Egypt, which, as the Greeks well knew, had been a stable and civilized country many centuries before Greece existed. 'Barbaros' did not necessarily ii imply contempt.


Many Greeks admired the moral code of the Persians and the wisdom of the Egyptians. The debt - material, intellectual and artistic, which the Greeks owed to the peoples of the East was rarely forgotten. Yet these people were 'barbaroi', foreigners, and classed with (though not confused with) Thracians, Scythians and such.


Only because they did not talk Greek?


No!!!

For the fact that they did not talk Greek was a sign of a profounder difference: it meant that they did not live Greek think Greek either. Their whole attitude to life seemed different; and a Greek, however much he might admire or even envy a 'barbarian' for this reason or that, could not but be aware of this difference.

All the above you can read it a lot of times in several modern writers. But let’s see what the ancient writers quoted as about this Greek linguistic issue.

Let’s beginning with the first option, the linguistic.

I will start with the ancient Greek Lexicon.







From the above texts according the etymology of the word barbaros mean

-foreign, not Greek speaker, bad Greek speaker, uncivilized, illiberal

So according the etymology in the applied linguistics barbaros is

-These that is not Greek speaker (Carian,Thracian,Persian e.t.c.)
-This that speak bad Greek speaker, even he is Greek (Macedonians, Epirotans)
The above etymology is confirming from the Strabo [14-II-28]. In the below quotes you can read in English-ancient Greek and modern Greek

English text
I suppose that the word "barbarian" was at first uttered onomatopoetically in reference to people who enunciated words only with difficulty and talked harshly and raucously, like our words "battarizein," "traulizein," and "psellizein";for we are by nature very much inclined to denote sounds by words that sound like them, on account of their homogeneity.
Wherefore onomatopoetic words abound in our language, as, for example, "celaryzein," and also "clange," "psophos," "boe," and "crotos," most of which are by now used in their proper sense.
Accordingly, when all who pronounced words thickly were being called barbarians onomatopoetically, it appeared that the pronunciations of all alien races were likewise thick, I mean of those that were not Hellenic.
Those, therefore, they called barbarians in the special sense of the term, at first derisively, meaning that they pronounced words thickly or harshly; and then we misused the word as a general ethnic term, thus making a logical distinction between the Greeks and all other races.
The fact is, however, that through our long acquaintance and intercourse with the barbarians this effect was at last seen to be the result, not of a thick pronunciation or any natural defect in the vocal organs, but of the peculiarities of their several languages.
And there appeared another faulty and barbarian-like pronunciation in our language, whenever any person speaking Hellenic did not pronounce it correctly, but pronounced the words like barbarians who are only beginning to learn Hellenic and are unable to speak it accurately, as is also the case with us in speaking their languages.
This was particularly the case with the Carians, for, although the other peoples were not yet having very much intercourse with the Greeks nor even trying to live in Hellenic fashion or to learn our language--with the exception, perhaps, of rare persons who by chance, and singly, mingled with a few of the Greeks --yet the Carians roamed throughout the whole of Greece serving on expeditions for pay.
Already, therefore, the barbarous element in their Hellenic was strong, as a result of their expeditions in Greece; and after this it spread much more, from the time they took up their abode with the Greeks in the islands; and when they were driven thence into Asia, even here they were unable to live apart from the Greeks, I mean when the Ionians and Dorians later crossed over to Asia.
The term "barbarize," also, has the same origin; for we are wont to use this too in reference to those who speak Hellenic badly, not to those who talk Carian. So, therefore, we must interpret the terms "speak barbarously" and "barbarously-speaking" as applying to those who speak Hellenic badly. And it was from the term "Carise" that the term "barbarize" was used in a different sense in works on the art of speaking Hellenic; and so was the term "soloecise," whether derived from Soli, or made up in some other way.�








Let’s examine the not applied linguistic option. But the applied Historical option.

Yet if we could ask an ancient Greek what distinguished him from the barbarian, he would not, I fancy, put these trium hs of the Greek mind first, even though he was conscious t R at he set about most things in a more intelligent way.
Demosthenes, for example, rating his fellow-citizens for their spineless policy towards Philip of Macedon, says “�You are no better than a barbarian trying to box. Hit him in one spot, and his hands fly there; hit him somewhere else, and his hands go there.��
Nor would he think first of the temples, statues and plays which we so justly admire. He would say, and in fact did say, “�The barbarians are slaves; we Hellenes are free men.��

And what did he mean by this 'freedom' of the Greek, and the 'slavery' of the foreigner?

We must be careful not to interpret it in political terms alone, though the political reference is important enough. Politically it meant, not necessarily that he governed himself - because oftener than not he didn't - but that however his polity was governed it respected his rights. State affairs were public affairs, not the private concern of a despot. He was ruled by Law, a known Law which respected justice. If his state was a full democracy, he took his own share in the government - and democracy, as the Greek understood it, was a form of government which the modem world does not and cannot know;but if it was not a democracy, he was at least a 'member', not a subject, and the principles of government were known. Arbitrary government offended the Greek in his very soul. But as he looked out upon the wealthier and more highly civilized countries of the East, this is precisely what he saw: palace-government, the rule of a King who was absolute; not governing, like the early Greek monarch, according to Themis, or a law derived from Heaven, but according to his private will only; not responsible to the gods, because he was himself a god. The subject of such a master was a slave.


But 'eleutheria' - of which 'freedom' is only an incomplete translation - was much more than this, though this is already a great deal. Slavery and despotism are things that maim the soul, for, as Homer says,

“�Zeus takes away from a man half of I his manhood if the day of enslavement lays hold of him.��

But there is more than this. There were 'barbaroi' other than those living under Oriental despotism. There were for example peoples of the North(Macedonians, Epirotans) living in tribal conditions from which the Greeks themselves had not long escaped.

What was the great difference between these and the Greeks, if it was not merely the superior culture of the Greeks?

The education or paideia as called in ancient Greek

The better explanation as regard the culture had given from Isocrates into Panygurika (50) that Athens surpasses so much in the thought and the reason was….

“ And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers1 of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood�

The meaning of this phrase is that the Isocrates considers as real Greeks only the Greeks that have received Greek or the known Attica education.


Source:
1-Strabo Geography, Greek edition, kaktos publisher
2-Isocrates, Panygirika, Greek edition, kaktos publisher
2-Kitto, The Greeks, Greek edition, kaktos publisher
3-Wilcken, Ancient Greek History, Greek edition, Papazeses publisher
4-Fragoulis, Ancient Greek Lexicon, Patakis publisher
5- http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html
6- http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/

[MILA]

Hello,

I have to admit this post (as normal for such 'com.' s) was way too long.

Anyhow,YES I do think/state that Byzantine/Greek.... 'writers' did tend to classify anybody else as 'barbarian',as we can well observe even nowadays...

Let's mention Thracians for inastance....we all know (except the Greek ) that at least half of the greek gods are actually Thracian ...yet Thracians according to them were 'barbarians' living in caves .....

I do expect a 'rain' of 'what do u know slav ******', 'give us proof u slav ****' ......but no proof can be given to the ones who do not want to see...sorry.

All the best,

Mila

[olvios]

The word of the month

Barbarian , -on (a.) - [word for expression of sound of foreign language ]. Not Greek, foreigner, barbarian, the foreigners mainly the Medes and the Persians , barbaric, the barbarians, Barbaroomai I become barbarian, Bebarbaromenos - - being inapprehensible, Barbarophone, - on, the one that speaks a foreign language, the one that does not speak Greek correctly. When it is used for Greeks as Spartans, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thessalians and other imply the use of Greek dialect minus Attica of (Athenians) or a cultural level lowest than that of Athenians. Usual offensive characterization of Athenians for the remainder Greeks. Depreciatory vilification between Greek nations.



Barbarize , I speak as a barbarian (while I am Greek), I take part of barbarians "Medise" take the Persian side , I violate the rules of Greek language, I make grammatical error, barbarism , Grammatical error, mistaken use of Greek language, At a barbaric way, In the barbaric language.



Barbarofylos , barbarian in the race # non Greek



Philellene [ filos+E'llin ] Foreigner that loves Greece and the Greeks, Greek patriot panhellene (if only particular Homeland Then is philopatris) in the antiquity, Opposite.Mishellene=Greek Hater.



"Hellenicity" by Jonathan Hall Liddel, X. and Scott, R. Big Dictionary Greek languages, Greek publication A C.D.Hamilton's "Agesilaus and the Failure: of Spartan Hegemony ( cornell University Press, 1991)

[Istor]

Mila,

We refer to the meaning of the word barbarian at Macedonian times.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon
I hope the link does work.

Yes, some Greek gods existed with different named in other peoples. Nothing wrong. The point is that Macedonians and southern Greekd did have the same 12 main gods and many other localized spirits, nymphes, .....

You cannot write that last paragraph for members of this forum or for myself. I tend to inslut mainly people who avoit to answer to my questions. Would you answer to them?

[MILA]

Hello Olvios,Istor!


Olvios,

I do understand that initially it ment 'one who does not speak(fluent)Greek','that goes Bar Bar'......what I meanis that at some point it assumed a negative meaning...and they would use in a offencive way.

Istor,

Didn't mean to insult anybody! Sorry about the tone you foun offevcive!

So...

'Yes, some Greek gods existed with different named in other peoples. Nothing wrong. The point is that Macedonians and southern Greekd did have the same 12 main gods and many other localized spirits, nymphes, ..... '

Do you intend that some Gods were customized in Greece without being originally Greek? (Because this is what I ment) I wasn't talkaing about Greek Gods shared in Macedonia and vice versa.....

As for the 'rain'...I gues I'm too used to Skopian forums ...they would usually react like that....anyway...

So...I found that interesting.. “”The barbarians are slaves; we Hellenes are free men.””

'.....the rule of a King who was absolute; not governing, like the early Greek monarch, according to Themis, or a law derived from Heaven, but according to his private will only; not responsible to the gods, because he was himself a god. The subject of such a master was a slave.'

If so,is it true that the Greek used to call Slavs slaves (and they would add an 'k'-sklavs,sklavoi..)? Was it a kind of a synonym? Howcome?Whwnever did they have a 'wealthier and more highly civilized country'?

I've red that 'slav' and 'sklav' have nothing to do with each other as well?!

Now...Thracians...It is widely spred out that the Greek would never consider them civilised,worthy (barbarians?!) and so on....Is it 100% true....Aren't there any sources in wich they are praised (not only as warriors..)?

Sorry about the off-topic things! I though they were interesting....
Concider them if you have some time and information....

All the best,

Mila

[olvios]

Gods werent copyrighted ......and in the pagan world gods "looked like eachother" from Japan to greece.Their perception and cultural view however changed in each civilization.Some had common gods others didnt.It is a collection of archetypal concepts.

Barbarians means what we wrote in all world bibliography on the issue and all ancient texts.The barbarian is only non-greek is noexistant and thought of only by albanians and Skops....Almost every Greek is insulted as barbarian by the Athenians when they are enemies and even at peacetime all are seen as inferior to them.

Slavs(sklavenoi.....) came AD and its in another thread.

You go too much off-topic and your posts are chaotic and lack order.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by MILA

Let's mention Thracians for inastance....we all know (except the Greek ) that at least half of the greek gods are actually Thracian ...yet Thracians according to them were 'barbarians' living in caves .....

Half ???
Would you be so kind as to name these Gods.

[Istor]

Originally Posted by MILA

....'Yes, some Greek gods existed with different named in other peoples. Nothing wrong. The point is that Macedonians and southern Greeks did have the same 12 main gods and many other localized spirits, nymphes, ..... '

Do you intend that some Gods were customized in Greece without being originally Greek? (Because this is what I ment) I wasn't talkaing about Greek Gods shared in Macedonia and vice versa.....

Yes.

......“”The barbarians are slaves; we Hellenes are free men.””

freedom of simple people was what separated Greeks from peoples around. When Alexander asked Macedonian soldiers to prise them as god they denied "for they were free men".

If so, is it true that the Greek used to call Slavs slaves (and they would add an 'k'-sklavs,sklavoi..)? Was it a kind of a synonym? How come? Whenever did they have a 'wealthier and more highly civilized country'?"

Always.

I've red that 'slav' and 'sklav' have nothing to do with each other as well?!

Very possible.

[Andrew]

The abuse of the word "barbarian" among Greeks:

In Protagoras (dialogue) 341c[1] of Plato, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect as barbarian, while referring to Pittacus of Mytilene

“ He didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect ”

The Aeolic dialect might, in the time of Socrates and Plato, sound so strange to the Athenians, as to be termed, from an exclusive pride in the Attic literary style, barbaros.

Source : wikipedia : Aeolian Dialect

[TirAlb]

This looks like a straw clutching to me,if ancient greeks abused with the term "Barbarian" maybe the did the same with term "Greek" or "Hellen"?!