FYROM Name Issue …. self-determination or territorial aspiration issue?

[Dimitar. M]

Originally Posted by akritas

Dimitar why I am not surprising that you didnt understand what I wrote as about the issue ?
Please answer me honestly two simply questions.

FYROMacedonia Unification
Your constitution mention that has as spot point the historic decision of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia(AFCM) and the founding manifesto of AFCM. In this manifesto (including in your Constitution) speaks for the unification of ‘Macedonia’, based on the right of self-determination, was a primary goal:

‘It is essential that we unite the whole Macedonian people of the three parts of Macedonia into one Macedonian state… Macedonians from Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia must follow the example of Macedonians in Jugoslav Macedonia’.

Is this a territorial aspiration or not ?
The objectives on the agenda of AFCM have been religiously observed for sixty years and more from your people and leaders.Your Constitition mention that and not me.

If it sais like that, then the constitutions contradicts itself, because in it states that the Macedonia has no territorial or whatsoever aspirations towards any country !! But please show me where in the constitution states that we want the 3 parts??

And again even if it states that, tell me Akritas will that territorial claim be changed if we change the name??? What does the name has to do with our claims?? If we call ourselves ''North Macedonia'' we can just inscreace our claims saying ,,Macedonia is splited on North and South and we want it united''.
If we are ''New Macedonia'' again nothing will change towards the territorial claims.

So we can conclude that the territorial claims are not what you are afraid off Akritas! Even a small child can realize that. You want the Macedonian identity, which is clear as day. Its hard for me to believe that it will hapen.

Originally Posted by akritas

Links with the ancient Macedonians

Originally Posted by akritas

All the writers (historians, anthropologists, archaeologists, ethnologists e.t.c.) support two thinks as about your nation:
- you are a newly and Slavic emergent people
- your national identity does not begin in ancient Macedonian era.

Also as about the origin of the ancient Macedonian there two streams
-Hellenize
-Greek

In the above we must adding the sudden “epidemic” manifesting itself through the erection of monuments, the renaming of streets, airports, etc., with names of Ancient Greek historical origin.
The usage of the Greeks Symbol Vergina Star from the Slavamcedonians officials is a is a “hostile activity”.

Is it a hostile activity, a territorial aspiration or not ?

Well the ''epidemic'' erection of monuments and renaming of streets can be compared with the same thing hapening in Greece after 1988 when tons of streets,airports,clubs,organizations were renamed to ''Macedonia''. We didn't jaked about it.
And who said that Vergina Star is only a Greek symbol?? Who said that we can't use it, or that if we use it we are hostile towards the Greeks? Poor you.

[Dimitar. M]

Originally Posted by akritas

Yes you tried....Caplan in the Balkan Ghosts(page 68) drunk a ..."macedonian coffee" from you Schismatic Archbishop in 1996.

That is Macedonian coffee you are drinking, not Turkish coffee or Greek coffee

And as about the "Greek coffee" Greeks we changed and use this name after Cyprus events. What about you ? Why "macedonian coffee" ?

This is the first time i hear about ,,Macedonian coffee''! I don't know from where you've heard that but you shouldn't make conclusions based on what one person said( and i don't know if he even said it). We still call it ,,Turkish coffee'' unlike yours ''Greek coffee''.

It would be hilarious to order a Turkish coffee in Greece and the owner saying ''we dont have Turkish we have only Greek'' and when he brings it to you, what do you see a Turkish coffee.

[Dimitar. M]

Originally Posted by Astoria

To become a Nato member a mutual friendship between all members must exist. Our veto was 100% valid. You will not become a member if you do not respect a member with seniority.

ccccc. Whao that's so nice. If we are members of NATO and Serbia wants to join we can say ,, eighter give us the monastery Prohor Pcinski which we lost in 1945 with the federational division or no NATO''

Or if we were in NATO and you werent it would be totaly right for us to say ,,If you dson't stop using the name Macedonia you will not enter NATO, or recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece or you will not enter( maybe we should add public schools for them etc.)

But that's all in the ranks of acceptable. We are talking about changing the identity of a people. You must be crazy if you believe that NATO worths that much. Nothing worths that much

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

If it sais like that, then the constitutions contradicts itself, because in it states that the Macedonia has no territorial or whatsoever aspirations towards any country !! But please show me where in the constitution states that we want the 3 parts??

In the ....PREAMBLE...
it's stated that based in ...the historical decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia

And one from these historical historical decisions is that the ...proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination. This would put an end to the oppresion of the people of Macedonia in all its parts.

Reminds you something ?

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

And again even if it states that, tell me Akritas will that territorial claim be changed if we change the name??? What does the name has to do with our claims?? If we call ourselves ''North Macedonia'' we can just inscreace our claims saying ,,Macedonia is splited on North and South and we want it united''.
If we are ''New Macedonia'' again nothing will change towards the territorial claims.

So we can conclude that the territorial claims are not what you are afraid off Akritas! Even a small child can realize that. You want the Macedonian identity, which is clear as day. Its hard for me to believe that it will hapen.

That's why we want a name for "erga omnes" only. We are not afraid you dimitar. You have tried at the past as Bulgarians first and as Slavmacedonians later to annex the Macedonia but you...failed.And you stayed in the Vardar region that you renamed it as ...Macedonia.
But we cannot close our eyes in you expanding claims. Given the fact that the Slavic population of the FYROM has changed its national identity four times during the 20th century, wavering from Bulgarian to Serbian to Bulgarian to "Macedonian," the insistence of Skopje not to give up its "Macedonian" identity feeds increasingly our suspicions that your Slavmacedonian site end goal is the eventual claim of all Macedonian territories (Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania). For more than 18 years Skopje has done all possible to maintain its "Macedonian" identity (as your constitution states ) and increasingly forces the issue through speeches or deeds of its governments, blaming Greece for all the ills of the FYROM society, as if it is a spoiled child in a tantrum.
We know that you dream the Macedonia dimitar, is not the first time.

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

Well the ''epidemic'' erection of monuments and renaming of streets can be compared with the same thing hapening in Greece after 1988 when tons of streets,airports,clubs,organizations were renamed to ''Macedonia''. We didn't jaked about it.

Dont be redicilus for one more time....

Contemporary Greek use of the name Macedonia - the most ill conceived skopjian lie
Grow up, Macedonia name is just a...Greek name in modern uses.

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

And who said that Vergina Star is only a Greek symbol?? Who said that we can't use it, or that if we use it we are hostile towards the Greeks? Poor you.

the Vergina sun is registered as a greek symbol by WIPO (World Intelectual Property Organisation of United Nations based in Geneva)...this is why they decided to change their first FYROM flag to the current one.....Only complete ignorant ultranationalists still use. Are you use it this pan-hellenic symbol in your daily life dimitar ?

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

This is the first time i hear about ,,Macedonian coffee''! I don't know from where you've heard that but you shouldn't make conclusions based on what one person said( and i don't know if he even said it). We still call it ,,Turkish coffee'' unlike yours ''Greek coffee''.

First time ?Caplan also and realized who are the ?macedonians" that speaks Slavonic

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

It would be hilarious to order a Turkish coffee in Greece and the owner saying ''we dont have Turkish we have only Greek'' and when he brings it to you, what do you see a Turkish coffee.

No is not, if you are are lover of the Greeks and respect the Greek hospitality. But now FYROM (VMRO politicians and diaspora slavmacedonians) is deep in love with the Turks.....deep in love. Am I right ?

[Astoria]

Originally Posted by Dimitar. M

You must be crazy if you believe that NATO worths that much. Nothing worths that much

Your all talk....

So then stop trying to enter Nato and EU.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

[Dimitar. M]

Originally Posted by akritas

In the ....PREAMBLE...
it's stated that based in ...the historical decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia

And one from these historical historical decisions is that the ...proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination. This would put an end to the oppresion of the people of Macedonia in all its parts.

Reminds you something ?

You are good at giving proofs. Show me the proof where does it state that??
Plus there were more Anti-Fashist Assemblies of the People Liberation of Macedonia( in which one is that stated??)
I can easely say ,,you lie'' ,,it doesn't say that''.

BTW as i said even if it states like that it is totaly democratic. If the ,,Greeks'' want to live with us why should we stop them.

proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the[u] whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination

And most important is that in the constitution states that ,,MAcedonia has no teritorial pretensions towards any country''.
That change was made by pressure from Greece. If Greece thought that there are more dubious things in our constitution she would have said it. She didn't so it a DONE DEAL.

Originally Posted by akritas

Originally Posted by akritas

That's why we want a name for "erga omnes" only. We are not afraid you dimitar. You have tried at the past as Bulgarians first and as Slavmacedonians later to annex the Macedonia but you...failed.And you stayed in the Vardar region that you renamed it as ...Macedonia.
But we cannot close our eyes in you expanding claims. Given the fact that the Slavic population of the FYROM has changed its national identity four times during the 20th century, wavering from Bulgarian to Serbian to Bulgarian to "Macedonian," the insistence of Skopje not to give up its "Macedonian" identity feeds increasingly our suspicions that your Slavmacedonian site end goal is the eventual claim of all Macedonian territories (Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania). For more than 18 years Skopje has done all possible to maintain its "Macedonian" identity (as your constitution states ) and increasingly forces the issue through speeches or deeds of its governments, blaming Greece for all the ills of the FYROM society, as if it is a spoiled child in a tantrum.
We know that you dream the Macedonia dimitar, is not the first time.

Dont be redicilus for one more time....

I'm not the one that is being rediciloius, you are. Not just that but you and your whole Greek society is starting to become a paranoid bunch. Your stories about our will to take all Macedonia go and tell it to a little child( i even doubt that an intelegent child will believe in them).
But from what i can conclude from your post you now change your view, and now it's not the name that bothers you, but it's the identity!! Why doesn't your goverment state that??

How does the Macedonian ethic identity threatens you and Greece is bejond me!!
And again you haven't ancered me my main question. What will change in our iredentistic claims if we change our name?? No anwser yet.

Originally Posted by akritas

Contemporary Greek use of the name Macedonia - the most ill conceived skopjian lie
Grow up, Macedonia name is just a...Greek name in modern uses.

It's not a lie Akritas. Showing me maps from Cambridge and Oxford( English schools) is pathetic to show me the use of the word Macedonia in Greece. Face it before 1988 you has a newspaper, a fair, and a organization called Macedonia. Now every second place there is called Macedonia, from airport to local clubs . You even put tables on the border with Macedonia saying ,,Welcome to Macedonia''

Originally Posted by akritas

the Vergina sun is registered as a greek symbol by WIPO (World Intelectual Property Organisation of United Nations based in Geneva)...this is why they decided to change their first FYROM flag to the current one.....Only complete ignorant ultranationalists still use. Are you use it this pan-hellenic symbol in your daily life dimitar ?

Your link didn't worked. Give me a proof that the Vergina sun is registered as a mark and i will believe you.

Originally Posted by akritas

First time ?Caplan also and realized who are the ?macedonians" that speaks Slavonic

Yes first time. We still call it Turkish coffee!! You know why, because it is TURKISH.

Originally Posted by akritas

No is not, if you are are lover of the Greeks and respect the Greek hospitality. But now FYROM (VMRO politicians and diaspora slavmacedonians) is deep in love with the Turks.....deep in love. Am I right ?

Yes it is funny. All the world knows it as Turkish coffee, just the Greeks call it Greek

PS: We are as much in love with the Turks as you are with the Bulgarians.

[Dimitar. M]

Originally Posted by Demetrius Doukas

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

You, a Macedonian?? Give me a break. If it wasn't for our ethnic Macedonian identity your regional Macedonian identity would'nt exist. Or it would as the Spartan regional identity

[euro]

Originally Posted by Demetrius Doukas

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

Demetrius Doukas.... as Macedonian i am also disgusted from the Greek propaganda and denying my identity. I think that you have no shame at all in this ruthless attack against Macedonia and Macedonians. I am really sorry for you too.....

[Draco]

A consistent pattern in Paeonian Bulgar nationalists' behaviour is that they claim that others are denying their identity and that this is bad, and then they proceed to deny the Greek/genuine Macedonian identity. I'm sorry, if you want them to recognize you, you have to recognize them, this is a two way street.