The word barbarian in the Ancient Greek Linguistics

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

This looks like a straw clutching to me,if ancient greeks abused with the term "Barbarian" maybe the did the same with term "Greek" or "Hellen"?!

Example of abuse of the term "Hellen" ???

So far I've seen only the other direction:

1) Demosthenes & Thrasymachus labeling barbarians the Macedonians
2) Thoukydides labeling barbarians the Aetolians (III,94)
3) Plato labeling barbarians the Aeolians (Protagoras 341c)
4) Herodotus (I,56-57) labeling barbarians the Athenians

So I'm asking TirAlb..where there any Greeks at all living in Greece in ancient times ??

[Ptolemy]

http://history-of-macedonia.com/word...ed-barbarians/

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Example of abuse of the term "Hellen" ???

So far I've seen only the other direction:

1) Demosthenes & Thrasymachus labeling barbarians the Macedonians
2) Thoukydides labeling barbarians the Aetolians (III,94)
3) Plato labeling barbarians the Aeolians (Protagoras 341c)
4) Herodotus (I,56-57) labeling barbarians the Athenians

So I'm asking TirAlb..where there any Greeks at all living in Greece in ancient times ??

Andrew i see here four examples,and on Ptolemys post there were 5.The one of thucidites about Epirotes is missing,why?In your defence i can say that,in the link brought by ptolemy that part was quite ignored too.
Apart that one about Athenians,indeed it was directed to one Athenian,and with the word ignorant right before,in the other quotes is quite difficult to prove the label Barbarian as a simple missunderstanding.Yeah i agree the Demostenes speach is quite political,and you can use the same justification as above,since he was trying to be offensive toward Filip,but the quote about Aetolians,twice,and epirotes made by chracters like plato and thycidites its another thing.And you have to work harder to convince people that it was just a trivial mistake.

[Tsontos]

Clutching at straws? I think this expression was never intended for a situation negates completely a proposed hypothesis (the hypothesis in this case which has been used by many is that Macedonians were called Barbarians by Demosthenes). Clutching at straws is especially unsuited for this point of discussion given the amount of historians who bring it up. In terms of air-time it is far from some ploy of modern Greek nationalism as you seem to be implying.

Example of abuse of the term "Hellen" ???

For this hypothesis (that we should disregard the apparent negation of the hypothesis mentioned above), you would need to show that, on the basis of another term in ancient Greek linguistics being misunderstood in certain contexts, that there are parallel examples of it being abused in relation to another term (Hellen). You would need to show that there are reasons for this stretching. So your question is why, in the ancient context without the reasons which are apparent in the 20th century for ethnic nationalisms, would Greeks use the term Greek more widely that its conventional meaning?

The key in these cases I think would be to look for political reasons. I've heard secular Albanians refer to any religious Muslim, especially from Kosovo, as a "Turk". But what reason would there be in ancient times for actually extending the meaning as you say? Specific examples?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Andrew i see here four examples,and on Ptolemys post there were 5.The one of thucidites about Epirotes is missing,why?In your defence i can say that,in the link brought by ptolemy that part was quite ignored too.
Apart that one about Athenians,indeed it was directed to one Athenian,and with the word ignorant right before,in the other quotes is quite difficult to prove the label Barbarian as a simple missunderstanding.Yeah i agree the Demostenes speach is quite political,and you can use the same justification as above,since he was trying to be offensive toward Filip,but the quote about Aetolians,twice,and epirotes made by chracters like plato and thycidites its another thing.And you have to work harder to convince people that it was just a trivial mistake.

TirAlb since you specify the question over Aetolians and Epeirotans I translate it as "demonstrate the greekness of the Epeirotans and the Aetolians" , no ??

1)


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=382&i=wilkestheillyriansdt4.png][IMG]http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3108

2) Aristotle in his meteorologika and Claudius Ptolemy in his Geography are refering to Epeirus as the "ancient most part of Greece" and the vast majority of modern historians see Epeirus as the Very First Station of the proto-Greeks.

The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes

Aristotle Meteorologika 1.352a

"Greece starts from Orikos and Epeirus is it's ancient most part"
Claudius Ptolemy

3) About the Aetolians , we both know that Homer mentiones them among the Greeks fighting in Troy:

«Thoas, son of Andraemon, commanded the Aetolians, who dwelt in Pleuron, Olenus, Pylene, Chalcis by the sea, and rocky Calydon, for the great king Oeneus had now no sons living, and was himself dead, as was also golden-haired Meleager, who had been set over the Aetolians to be their king. And with Thoas there came forty ships.»

4) I could go on and on ..but all the stuff is already on the Threads about the Greekness of the Epeirotans etc ...and I'm sure you read them.

5) About educated scholars like Plato and Thoukydides ..now the use of the word barbarian acquires a new "color" after reading this:

watch my post (#60) here

As you can see there were Atheneans that couldn't speak Attic (!!!) , and so Educated Atheneans like Plato and Thoukydides probably considered them also "barbarians".

[TirAlb]

No Andrew my question was restricted to Thucidites quote.I understand you,attack the truthfulness of that quote by presenting other proofs of the Greekness of Epirus.But again can you attack diretcly that quote,like you did with the Demosthenes one?Did thucidites have any political reason to do so,was him an ignorant?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

No Andrew my question was restricted to Thucidites quote.I understand you,attack the truthfulness of that quote by presenting other proofs of the Greekness of Epirus.But again can you attack diretcly that quote,like you did with the Demosthenes one?Did thucidites have any political reason to do so,was him an ignorant?

TirlAlb I can say to you what Thoukyduides meant.For an educated noble man like Thoukydides , living in a culturarly flowrishing and democratic city like Athens ..being a Hellen meant "participating in the ideas of the democratic city State. What I'm saying to you know is what NGL Hammond said back in the 70s about the "Thoukydides position". For this guy the Epeirotans , the Macedonians and the Aetolians were:

1) Nomadic goatherders
2) "ethni" = nomadic Tribes and not Static and developed cities
3) governed by a monarchy

All this things were considered "barbaric" from the Classic period Greek of a city state.

To understand Thoukydides point of view you must understand two other quotes :

1) Isokrates claming that "Greek is only he who had an Attic education"
2) Aristotle who said that barbarians are ruled by monarchy because they are unable to rule themselves. So in this quote the word "barbarian" becames synonym of the word "stupid".An the racist opinions of Aristotle when it comes to Greek and no-Greek are well known, no TirAlb ??

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Andrew

TirlAlb I can say to you what Thoukyduides meant.For an educated noble man like Thoukydides , living in a culturarly flowrishing and democratic city like Athens ..being a Hellen meant "participating in the ideas of the democratic city State. What I'm saying to you know is what NGL Hammond said back in the 70s about the "Thoukydides position". For this guy the Epeirotans , the Macedonians and the Aetolians were:

1) Nomadic goatherders
2) "ethni" = nomadic Tribes and not Static and developed cities
3) governed by a monarchy

All this things were considered "barbaric" from the Classic period Greek of a city state.

To understand Thoukydides point of view you must understand two other quotes :

1) Isokrates claming that "Greek is only he who had an Attic education"
2) Aristotle who said that barbarians are ruled by monarchy because they are unable to rule themselves. So in this quote the word "barbarian" becames synonym of the word "stupid".An the racist opinions of Aristotle when it comes to Greek and no-Greek are well known, no TirAlb ??

What can i say,thanks for your answer.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

What can i say,thanks for your answer.

You're free to say what ever you want ee....I'm open to every discusion . What's your thought on the whole "barbarian" issue ??

[Vasot]

BARBARIAN
"Barbarian" is a pejorative term for an uncivilized, uncultured person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos perceived as having an inferior level of civilization, or in an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person whose behaviour is unacceptable in the society of the speaker.

Depending on its use, the term "barbarian" either described a non-Greek (or non-Roman) European individual or European tribe whose first language was non-Greek or a Greek individual or tribe speaking Greek crudely. The term is also historically used to describe the Vikings and Goths. Commonly associated with the "Normans" during invasion of England and the Gothic revolt that put an end to the Roman Empire in 470 A.D. also know as the "beginning" of the dark ages.

The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Thracians, Egyptians, Persians, Indians, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Romans, and Carthaginians. However in certain occasions, the term was also used by Greeks, especially Athenians to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Macedonians, Epirotes, Eleans and Aeolic-speakers) in a pejorative and politically motivated manner.Of course, the term also carried a cultural dimension to its dual meaning. The verb barbarizein in ancient Greek meant imitating the linguistic sounds non-Greeks made or making grammatical errors in Greek.