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| Linguistics Forum Linguistics Forum. Anything to do with language and linguistics, including in regards the Macedonian issue. |
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__________________ Humans beings that leave from this world are not lost, when we continue to honouring and loving them. Therefore we contribute also at some way in their unending survival, in their floruit, with our effort becomes always perceptible, live around us their presence. |
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| Great work Kostas ...you finally did it ..the work of modern Macedonian dialects of Greek language ..Bravo ![]() !!I'll start searching my regional dialect and soon I'll try to give some info. Until then I'll make a prologue: I come from the Roumlouki region (Ρουμλούκι) which is the north-eastern part of the Emathia plain.About the stupid Skop propaganda you say I know that at least since Kosmas the Aetolian visited our village back in the 1700s(then Γιδοχώρι , village of the Goats , and strangely very close to the ancient cities Aegae (16 Km) and Aeginion (8 Km) , Αιξ/Αιγός meaning Goat in ancient greek as the word γίδα does in modern Greek) we were hellenophons as ALL the maps of the demographic history of macedonia in wikipedia evidence. Even the maps of the Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda considered my region hellenophon.We are most known for our traditional female costume with it's headband named "το κατσούλι του Γιδά" or the "κατσούλα του Γιδά" as Penelope Delta refers to this headband. Every expert recognises in it the ancient Macedonian helmet. The local myth says that Alexander the Great offered it to the women after one battle in which they fought with the men.Personaly I believe that the real version of the Story is that the women were wearing it to look like soldiers meanwhile working in the camps and the men were away in campains. To sostain that , studing the "History of Macedonia" by Hammond in Vol II in the "the language of the ancient Macedonians" i nthe word "mimallones" (which I translate as μίμες άλλων) there is the note number 132 or 131 I'm not sure were it quotes a piece of Polyaenus where he says that sometime in king Argaeus' realm 1000 Illyrian Soldiers have retreated after confusing a bunch of mimallones as soldiers .In plus , in the Iliad I've found many times the term λιπαροκρήδεμνος (woman with aglitter headband). So I give also the photo of this "katsouli": ![]() [url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=171&i=61969460ck3.jpg][IMG]http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2303/61969460ck3.b75b188f89 Roumlouki's western limit is the old stream of the river Haliacmon that formed the southern part of "The Swamp" and united with Ludias forming the lake as Herodotus says in 7.127 . The northern limit is formed by the river Ludias and what was the south coast of the Lake of Giannitsa. The name Roumlouki was given by the Turk conquerers meaning in turkish "place of the Greeks" (Rum luk).There about 40 villages with the biggest one Gidas (now days Alexandreia , my hometown). The dialect is called Roumloukiotika and the local inhabitans Roumloukiotes. From the little I know our dialects are similar We also use "skli,pli,groyn" instead of skyli , poyli , goyroyni. and "ποδ,ποδάρ , μαξιλάρ" instead of πόδι,ποδάρι,μαξιλάρι. When a dog streches&elevates it's ears we say "άρτσωσε τ΄αυτιά" (probably from ancient greek αίρω/άρω meaning elevating). Penelopi Delta in her "Secrets of the Swamp" quots some frases of my region's dialect like "εχ παλκάρια το Νσσί" instead of "έχει παλικάρια το Νησί (χωριό) etc. In Eastern we have a local traditional food . We don't roast the lamp or goat but we put it fractioned with rize , green onions , other stuff in the traditional oven and close the entrance with mad . This food is called "bitzivisi" , local pronounce "bitzvis". A thing that gained my attension was the following . Here in Ferrara in Italy were I study we are three guys from Roumlouki.Common friends from Volos and Athens once told me that we three "Roumloukiotes" use the frase "όχι αμάν και τί" instead of "όχι αμάν και πως" as they do in Volos and Athens. Studing the Odyssey , strangely I found out that Homer uses "τι" in (V605,6): Quote:
A similar frase is the term for "why not" ..."σάματς τί" .We even loaned it to some Italian friends of ours and now when they are with us instead of the Italian "perchè no" they say "samats ti" ..LOL !!Another strange old word of my region is "τουρκανάκατος" (mixed with Turk ,greek ανακατέβω meaning mixing) when the rest of the Greeks prefer the term "τουρκόσπορος" (turkish spore). Another strange thing is that the 90% at least of the "Roumloukiotes" surnames ends in -poulos. The old ones when are refering to a woman they cut the -poulos end add -ouda (examples Μοσχοπούλου becames Μοσχούδα , Μαυροπούλου becames Μαυρούδα).In the males they cut the poulos without adding anything (example Χατζόπουλος becames Χατζής) and if we have a children the old ones refere to it by adding -ουδι withour cutting the poulos (example a Κυρόπουλος child is called Κυροπουλούδι or in the dialect "Κυροπλούδδ" .The ending -ούδι/ούδα is interresting because it derives from the ancient Greek ending -ώδης a variant of -ειδής/-ίδης. Similar "ου" transformations we have in the Greek words μεταλλούχος (έχειν μέταλλον , containing metal) , χειρούργος ( surgeon , χεῖρᾳ εργεῖ , operating with the hand etc). Even more interesting is the fact that in the ancient macedonian dialect we have a conservation of "ου" and "αυ" here the other Greeks entered the letter "ω" (example ancient Macedonian σαυτωρία instead of attic σωτηρία) ,since we know that omega was a later letter of the Greek alphabet (φάος>>φως , θέα ορώ>>θεωρώ etc) and it substituted a combination of "o" with another vocal. So I think that the -ούδα/-ούδι are seriusly variations of the formal greek ending -ώδης (example ζωώδης , animal like , ομιχλώδης , like fogg). Another frase is "είσαι θκός μας ή απ΄αυνούς ?" (είσαι δικός μας ή από αυτούς (τους άλλους) , are you one of ours or one of them ?) Παένω/Παένς instead of πηγαίνω (Ι'm going)/πηγαίνεις (you're going) ζουνάρ (heard more like ζναρ) intead of ζωνάρι (little belt , greek ζώνη=belt and note again "ου" instead of "ω"). τα΄ρνίθια (τα ορνίθια , the chickens , from ancient greek όρνις/όρνιθας=bird). πλαλάω (αιωρούμαι , to hover) ancient Greek Πλανήτης (planet). Another interesting thing is the female personal names. We tend to make them end in ω. For example my great grandmothers were named Δάφνη (Daphne) and Ελισάβετ (Elisabeth) and my grand mothers are named Αμυγδαλιά and Σοφία . Σοφία remains as it is but the others my grandfathers call them Δάφνω , Λισάβω/Τσάβω , Μύγδω . Is it pure lack or is there any relation with the fact that many ancient female greek names ended in ω (example Ηρώ , Μυρτώ , Γοργώ , Ενυώ etc).The name Ελένη was called Λένια and the female ending -η trasnforming to -α reminds the ancient Macedonian names Αντιγόνα ,Ευρυδίκα , Αμαδίκα instead of attic Αντιγόνη , Ευρυδίκη , Αμαδίκη. And since I'm talking of my great grandmothers , who none of them went to a school . The one from my fathers side when cought someone being naif/abstract used to say "νους βλέπ νους ακούει" (it is the mind that sees and the mind that hears) years later studing philosophy I found out a similar phrase by the Greek Philosopher Epikharmus (dorian from Sicily) saying: "νοῦς ὁρᾖ και νοῦς ἀκούει" and my great grand mother from my mother's side to say to my mother when she was a child that it was bad to retain the urina for a long time she was saying "μή σπαργώνετε !" (don't retain it ! , from ancient greek σπάργω=retain , for example σπάργωσις/spargosis is the biological term that defines the cellular lysis by osmotical retension of water.
__________________ «Μακεδῶν εξ'Αιγιδίου» «...οἶά τε φύλλα μακεδνῆς αἰγείροιο» "...like the leaves of a very high poplar" (Odyssey VII,106) |
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| As I have been surfing the Makedonskian websites, a familiar theme that is repeated over and over again, is that modern Greeks and the Greek language have little connection to the ancients. I decided to review some books on the Greek language and it's continuity over thousands of years. Here is one excerpt Medieval and Modern Greek by Robert Browning - 1983 ![]() and another..... The Modern Greek Language in Its Relation to Ancient Greek - Page 20 by Edmund Martin Geldart - Greek language, Modern - 1870 ![]() Notice, Geldart was writting this in 1870... Surpise surpirse! The Greek language alive and well in Macedonia (with noted Doric affiliations). |
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| Thank you very much Chicago George !!! About the "u" ancient sound I'd like to add that in the oral tradition the sound remained in some words .... Take for example the ancient river in my region Loydias. Herodotus wrights "Ludias" , and today we wright "Loudias". Yet if someone knows that ancient "u" was pronounced as modern "ou" does then you see the oral "continiuty" between "Ludias" and "Loudias".
__________________ «Μακεδῶν εξ'Αιγιδίου» «...οἶά τε φύλλα μακεδνῆς αἰγείροιο» "...like the leaves of a very high poplar" (Odyssey VII,106) |
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| Στην Κοζάνη επίσης χρησιμοποιούμε την λέξη μακεδονήσι που σημαίνει μαιντανός, σε λεξικό του Κοζανίτικου ιδιώματος βρήκα οτι αυτό λέγεται επείδη υπάρχει ένας μύθος ότι οι αρχαίοι Μακεδόνες έτρωγαν μαϊντανό πριν τη μάχη για να τονωθούν..
__________________ Voices, acclamations and whinnies of horses like those call their joy with the persons,too. I afterwards cannot still - so much years after that forget the moment where somebody ran in the cemeteries that was there near and with cry to the grave of his brother, said: “My Brother you can sleep quiet. Because our land, became at last Greek”!!! Kon. Tsitseliki, «11 October 1912». Memories written to Kozanis. newspaper «Voreios Hellas» |
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