Ancient Macedonian language

[olvios]

Those theories are worthless nationalism and are made for retarded people or people of low intellect .

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Peace Lover

I now that Old Macedonian has the word Kandoj " Jaws " * .
I compare it with the Albanian dialects :
Shkip ( Kosovan ) Knoj 1: " Sing " ; 2: " Jaws " ,
Geg ( Northern Albania ) Kandoj 1: " Sing " ; 2: " Jaws " ,
Tosk ( Southern Albania ) Kendoj 1: " Sing " ; 2: " Jaws " ,
Standart Albanian Këndoj 1: " Sing " ; 2: " Jaws " .
-------------------------------------------------------------
* Wiki .

Peace Lover welcome in the Macedonia on the Web.
Now as about your post can you tell us please which ancient source mention that the word Kandoj is old or ancient Macedonian ?

[Peace Lover]

Originally Posted by akritas

Peace Lover welcome in the Macedonia on the Web.
Now as about your post can you tell us please which ancient source mention that the word Kandoj is old or ancient Macedonian ?

κάναδοι kanadoi 'jaws' nom. pl. (Attic γνάθοι gnathoi, PIE *genu, 'jaw') (Laconian καναδόκα kanadoka notch (V) of an arrow χηλὴ ὀϊστοῦ)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language

[akritas]

Your source (wiki) doesnt say that the albanian kandoj is ancient Macedonian. The Greek word kanados suggesting that is macedonian according Hoffman.

[Peace Lover]

I just say that is closely to Geg Albanian dialect , can easly be a Macedon influence to Albanian .

[akritas]

6. MACEDONIAN

North of the Greeks, bracketed by Illyrians and Thracians, lived the Macedonians. Much uncertaintysurrounds the linguistic status ofthe Macedonian peoples. Though, under the patronage ofMacedonian kings, Philip the Second and his son Alexander the Great, Greek culture would be spread across the Mediterranean and Near Eastern world and the Greek language would become a lingua franca (the Attic-based Koine dialect; see Ch. 2, §1) spoken from Italyto India, it remains unclear ifGreekwas the native language ofthe Macedonians (see Brixhe and Panayotou 1994b:206-207 for a synopsis of ideas about the identity of Macedonian).

To be sure, the Greek orator Demosthenes, in the fourth century BC, can revile and lambaste Philip as one of the barbaroi ("barbarians," those who do not speak Greek, i.e., those who babble; Orations 3.17) and rehearse how in the old days the Macedonian king had been rightly subject to the Greeks, as barbaroi should be (Orations 3.24). He can skewer Philip with the charge that, not only is he not a Greek and unrelated to the Greeks, he is not even a barbaros from some worthwhile place, but he is a plague out of Macedonia - a place from which you cannot even acquire a good slave (Orations 9.31). A century earlier, Herodotus had told the story of an ancestor of Philip, Alexander the First (a contempo*rary of Herodotus), who had been allowed to compete in games at Olympia - though barbaroi were excluded from the competition - because he was able to demonstrate satis*factorily that he himself was descended from a Greek banished from Argos (Histories 5.22; 8.137-139).

Explicit references to "Macedonian speech" exist. Plutarch, the Greek savant of the first and second centuries AD, when writing of Cleopatra (Life of Antony 27.3-4), the last of the Ptolemies (the Macedonian kings of Egypt), lauds her linguistic abilities, reporting that she could speak the languages of the Ethiopians, Troglodytes, Hebrews, Arabs, Syrians, Medes, and Parthians. In contrast, her male predecessors had not even learned Egyptian and some had even "ceased to speak Macedonian" (μακεδονίζειν εκλιπόντων). Presumably they had continued to speak Greek (i.e., had not taken a vow of silence). Athenaeus, a Greek writer of the later second century AD, in his account of a "Learned Banquet" (Deipnosophistae 3.121f-122a), places on the lips of one of the guests, the cynic Cynulcus, a Latin word decocta (a kind of drink made by boiling and then rapidly cooling a liquid); in turn, Athenaeus has another guest, Ulpian (an "Atticist," promoting the use of untainted Attic Greek), rebuke Cynulcus for uttering a barbarism (!). Cynulcus fires back, retorting that even in the best old Greek one finds Persian loanwords and that he knows many Attic Greeks "using Macedonian speech" (μακεδονίζοντας; a participle from Plutarch's verb). Elsewhere, Plutarch uses an adverb makedonisti (μακεδονιστί) having the same sense. For example, in his Life of Alexander (51.4), Plutarch recounts how the Macedonian conqueror, in a fit of rage, refusing to be quieted by his body guards, shouted out for the hypaspistai (Macedonian infantry troops, one contingent of the army of Alexander), "calling in Macedonian - and this was a sign of a great disturbance" The precise sense of "speaking Macedonian" in these and other passages can be and has been debated; yet when these references to Macedonian speech are considered in their context, it is not difficult for one to conclude that what is being reported is the use of a distinct, non-Greek ("barbarian") Macedonian language.
In contrast, however, other classical authors explicitly identify the Macedonians as a Greek people. Polybius, the Greek historian of the second century BC, for example, describes Macedonians and Greeks as being homophylos (ομόφυλος), "of the same race" or "akin" (Histories 9.37.7). For references to other, similar texts, see Katicic 1976:107-108.

An interesting case is provided by an instance in which Macedonians identify themselves as Greeks and speakers of Greek. The Roman historian Livy (first centuries BC and AD), writing of events in the war waged by Philip the Fifth of Macedon and his Arcarnanian Greek allies against Athens, with Rome as its own ally, records a meeting of the council of the Aetolian Confederacy, at which representatives from Philip, from Athens and from Rome address the council, each seeking Aetolian assistance in the war (200 BC). In his speech to the council, the Macedonian ambassador refers to the Romans as "a foreign people set apart more by language and customs and laws than by the space of sea and land" (31.29.12). In contrast, "Aetolians, Acarnanians and Macedonians [are] people of the same language... [and] with foreigners, with barbarians all Greeks are, and will be, at eternal war" (31.29.15). The dialect of the Aetolian Confederacy, a league of the Aetolians of northwest Greece, was the Northwest Greek Koine, a "common" dialect used throughout regions controlled by the Confederacy (see Ch. 3, §1.1.5). Is it this lingua franca to which Livy has his Macedonian diplomat self-servingly refer? One could well imagine that it would be the Macedonian's langue de choix on such an occasion. The Acarnanians also inhabited northwest Greece, though Acarnanian inscriptions from this period are written in the Doric Koine, only slightly different from the Aetolian dialect.

Surviving Macedonian texts have not proved helpful in identifying the native language of the Macedonians. Most of the Macedonian inscriptions are written in Attic Greek, the dialect broadly disseminated by Philip and Alexander. A fourth-century BC inscription found recently in the remains of the great Macedonian city of Pella appears to be written in a variety of Northwest Greek and has led to conjectures that this may be the previously unattested Macedonian language (see the comments of Brixhe and Panayotou 1994b:209 along with the mention of other finds in n.19).

The evidence provided by Macedonian glosses is conveniently summarized by Katicic (1976:108-112), who analyzes these as belonging to three different classes.

One class consists of words that are quite close to known Greek lexemes, some, though probably not all, of which appear likely to be loanwords directly from Greek: for example, kommarai; compare Greek kammaroi (κάμμαροι), a type of lobster (pl.).

A second set is made up of Macedonian words which have no Greek counterparts, such as alie "boar"

The third group is similar to the first to the extent that it consists of Macedonian words apparently having Greek counterparts; it differs from the first class, however, in that these Macedonian words are perhaps to be analyzed as cognates of the Greek lexemes, rather than borrowings. In other words, by such an analysis, the related Macedonian and Greek forms have evolved historically from words occurring in a common parent language, either Proto-Indo-European or, alternatively, some later, intermediate Balkan Indo-European language. Compare, for example, Macedonian ade "sky" and Greek aiMr (αϊθήρ); Macedonian kebaia "head" (cf. gabaia which the Greek lexicographer Hesychius also glosses as "head," without identifying the linguistic source of the word) and Greek kephale (κεφαλή). If such sets are rightly analyzed as cognates, the Macedonian language departs conspicuously from Greek in showing voiced unaspirated rather than voiceless aspirated reflexes of the earlier Indo-European voiced aspirated stops.

source:
The Ancient Languages of Europe Edited by Roger D. Woodard

[chicagogeorge]

[kzk842]

Its also good to see how is in modern Greek the translation word by word of the only text in ancient Macedonian language-Katadesmos Pellas (It is possibly the only attested text in the ancient Macedonian language (O. Masson).

ANCIENT MACEDONIAN

ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΙΣ ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ

MODERN GREEK

ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣ ΑΛΛΕΣ ΠΑΣΕΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΕΣ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΤΗΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΕΜΠΙΣΤΕΥΟΜΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΤΕ ΕΓΩ ΑΥΤΑ ΞΕΔΙΠΛΩΘΩ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΩΣΩ ΠΑΛΙ ΞΕΘΑΨΩ.

Is there any doubt if this is Greek or not?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kzk842

Its also good to see how is in modern Greek the translation word by word of the only text in ancient Macedonian language-Katadesmos Pellas (It is possibly the only attested text in the ancient Macedonian language (O. Masson).

ANCIENT MACEDONIAN

ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ Π Α Ρ Κ Α Τ Τ Ι Θ Ε Μ Α Ι ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΙΣ ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ

MODERN GREEK

ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣ ΑΛΛΕΣ ΠΑΣΕΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΕΣ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΤΗΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΕΜΠΙΣΤΕΥΟΜΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΤΕ ΕΓΩ ΑΥΤΑ ΞΕΔΙΠΛΩΘΩ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΩΣΩ ΠΑΛΙ ΞΕΘΑΨΩ.

Is there any doubt if this is Greek or not?

Guys ..I just love the word "ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ" instead of attic "ΠΑΡΑΚΑΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ" ... d oyou know why ???

1) contraction of "ΠΑΡΑ-" in "ΠΑΡ-"
2) doubling of dental "T"

Now ...take the OBVIUSLY greek word "ΠΕΡΙΔΙΚΑΙΟΣ" meaning "famusly just"
and apply :
1) contraction of ΠΕΡΙ- to ΠΕΡ-
2) doubling of dental "k" to "kk"
3) add North Western greek ending in "-as"
.................................................. ........
= ΠΕΡΔΙΚΚΑΣ !!!! The name of the first Macedonian King , and common Macedonian name later !!!

[Andrew]

Here is another interesting find !!!


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=106&i=textka0.png][IMG]http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/4809/textka0.fc446afe10

Note that:

1) It presents the Macedonian "language" as a rough dialect of Greek

2) It mentions that eventualy the Attic dialect overwhelmed the other Greek dialects (it is the case of it's adoption by the Macedonians).
3) The best part ... Attic was a prose and artistic language that even the Atheneans themselves avoided in their every day speaking , because it was in a manner of way "artificial". So the fact that the Macedonians managed to adopt it relatively easely means only one thing ...they must be Greeks from the start ...something that is dificult for it's less educated citizens ..is twice dificult for uncivilized strangers ...don't you think ?

Here is the book