German Perspective

[Amyntas]

Geia sas Paidia,

after i did some small talk with BigTaki about how the german majority think about the whole macedonia issue he asked me to share this with you.

The Germans basicly do not understand the name dispute because of one simple thing. They have different names for Greek Makedones and the Skops and their country. This is part of the reason why the Germans have been quite stubborn for FYROM's right to self determination as well.

They call Greek Macedonians "Makedonen" or "Makedonier" and call the Greek Macedonia province "Makedonien".
The Skops on the otherhand are called "Mazedonier" and FYROM "Mazedonien".

This way of differing those two different people has a simple reason. On the one hand they think that the skops have the right to call them selves what ever they want. On the other hand they do not see any connection between the skops and the Ancient Macedonians and their descendents. So they tried to find names that underline that there is a difference. Since they know that Alexander the Great and his Kingdom was Greek they refer to ancient "Makedonien" and the ancient "Makedonen/Makedonier" as well as for for their Greek Descendents and the Land they live in. So in german:

Greek Macedonia (speaking either historically or about the modern Greek province) = Makedonien

Macedonians (plural) = Makedonen

Macedonian (masculine noun) = Makedonier

Macedonian (feminine noun) = Makedonierin

Macedonian (Adjective) = Makedonisch


However, since 1991 and the Skops independence the Germans and German historians have called the Skopjians 'Mazedonier' and FYROM, as a country, 'Mazedonien'. This is because the only connection the Germans could make up between the name Macedonia and the Skopjians are geographical and for reason of self-determination, not historical. So, as a way of getting around the fact that there was no historical connection because it would be encroaching on the Greek history of Macedonia they took the name of the Roman Province Macedonia, which German historians pronounced Mazedonia (Ma"ts"edonia). They gave FYROM the name Mazedonien and the collective noun for the people Mazedonier. So in german:

FYROM = Mazedonien

Skopjians (plural noun) = Mazedonier

Skopjian (masculine noun) = Mazedonier

Skopjian (feminine noun) = Mazedonierin

Skopjian (Adjective) = Mazedonisch


About Alexander the Great, the germans (i mean the simple minded ones who are not very much interested in history) mostly think of him as a Greek King, they dont even see a connection between the name Makedonia and Alexander because it's all Greek to them .


Another thing is that Most Germans dont even regard the skops as Bulgars but as Yugoslavs (like Croats, Bosnians ect.) and despite it being politically incorrect they often just refer to them as Jugoslawien. Having this slight difference in naming those two (as we all know) completly different things, they cannot understand the naming dispute and do supoort a recognition under the name "Mazedonien" not knowing that in other languages (english for example) it's simply Macedonia, and that this causes trouble. I hope i could give you an overview about the german perspective. If you have any questions on this ask them here, I ll answer them


Ps. It has happened before that the Skopjians complain in Germany that they are not called Makedonien with a 'k'. If a propagandised Skopjian is speaking German he will most likely refer to himself as Makedonier, instead of Mazedonier.

[akritas]

Very helpfull your help Giourkas.So the maps that showed from the Skopjan propaganda and mention the word Mazedonien mean the Macedonian Slavs. Am I right ?

In order to use this strong argyment can you show us any page of lexicon or something relative in the web to sustain this claim ?

[Tsontos]

Akritas, first of all you are right Giourkas is from germany (when I pm'd you I thought he was a canadian because of another greek canadian on another forum

second, about that map I will send you a pm

[akritas]

Originally Posted by BigTakis

Akritas, first of all you are right Giourkas is from germany (when I pm'd you I thought he was a canadian because of another greek canadian on another forum

second, about that map I will send you a pm

OK , but this linguistic proof regarding the German etymology of the Macedonian name and the diffrencies between show us a lot regarding the Skopjan prpagnda:
1-Greek PM when visited Germany ,hear in Greece we accuse him baecause he diddn't respond when Srender mention the word Matsedonien!!!.Bur Karamanlis is very good German speaker and undersatnd what Srender talk about it. Mazedonien and Makedonien. But here in Greece nobody explain to us the dieffrences

2-The sources that I am ask from Giourkas will be helpfull in some German documents (not only the maps) that circulated from the Skopjan propaganda will help us in ours debates in the net.

[Amyntas]

I ll try to find something. It is difficult because I just tried to show you how people in germany do think. Noone really argues about that naming thing. The germans just call most of the people from former Yugoslavia (Jugoslawien) Jugos.
They are pretty insulted about that but noone cares ^^.

This site (unfortunatly in german) does try to give an overview about the whole issue and does only mention the slavs as "Mazedonier".
http://www.adlexikon.de/Geschichte_d...zedonier.shtml

It says that the slavs started to call themselves "Makedonen" when Makedonia was under turkish reign, people all regarded themselves as Makedonen no matter of what ethinicity they are just because they lived in geographical Macedonia and also that their "Mazedonisch" language was regarded as one of several dialects.

[Tsontos]

Although wikipedia is not a reliable source. Here is two pages (german wikipedia) showing the difference

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazedonien

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makedonien

The first site mentions that only South FYROM (Pelagonia) is part of the historical, geographical Makedonien.

[akritas]

No problem.Also and this source is helpfull.The thread is move in linguistic forum
Thanks Giourkas

[Tsontos]

Akritas, I think it would be good to keep this thread in Free Speech forum as well as copying it to Linguistic forum as more people will see it in the free speech part

can you put one copy of this thread back into the free speech part?

[akritas]

Done
I put it in both forums.
I want it and in the linguistic forum in order to read and our "spider" visitors

[Istor]

I have stated many times that the problem is on English Language. If English language had two dif words for Macedonians and SlavoSkopians the problem would be less important. That's why all proposed solutions have the term "unchanged" for the new name of FYROM.

Anyway, Giourkas and other Greeks in Germany, I think it's time to enlighten German people and Parliament about the importance of the name. So, would any one of you write a text in German about it? He will have full of my support. The article could ask Germans if they accept to call any non-German people around as Bavarian.

Anyway the German solution is good but we shall look for a better one. If SlavoSkopians are not related to ancient Macedonians then this shall be clearly shown in their name. As Papariga said "any Macedonian term in their name is geographic"

Generally speaking, could we Greeks make a group who will protest to any wrong use of the term Macedonian by media or officers? I mean pammacedonian makes really good work in USA, how about Europe, or Australia ?? How about media, unions, un-gov organizations, HR unions ... ??