Albanian language

[PAO123]

Can anyone prove to me that the Albanian language is not similar with Illirian since I am having an argument with an Albanian about it. Thanks

[Tsontos]

No it cannot be proved, nor can it be proved that it is similar with illyrian. this is because there is absolutley no record of the illyrian language. zilch. for that matter there is no written records of albanian until during the 1st millenium AD

those who consider albanian to be the descendent of illyrian due to its uniqueness in the region and not due to any record of illyrian.

[Ptolemy]

Have a read to this topic. Maybe it will help

http://mobydicks.com/lecture/Herodot...&i=116&t=5&v=f

[Ptolemy]

Some random quotes to use in order to make Albanians mad.

"Roman culture absorbed that of the Illyrians. Those Illyrians who did not assimilate probably moved to the less hospitable mountainous areas, but little is known of their fate. They are as mysterious as the Etruscans, the pre-Roman occupants of the Italian peninsula."

pp.10 Fred Singleton, "The Yugoslav Peoples", Cambridge Press University, 1989

"The lack of early references to the Albanians is not significant, And if the Illyrians were proto-Albanians, the argument does not stand because sources mention Illyrians there earlier. We should not that the Vlachs are not mentioned anywhere in this period either....Moreover the Albanians did not have a single ancestor in one or the other of these pre-Slav peoples; the present-day Albanians are an ethnic mixture and in addition to this main ancestor they contain an admixture of Slavic, Greek, Vlach and Romano-Italian ancestry."

John VA Fine, "The Early Medieval Balkans", Michigan University Press, 1991

"Some Albanian archaelogists have tried hard to show that the Koman hill-town culture of the seventh and eight centuries is the essential proof of Albanian-Illyrian continuity; but material remains do not tell us what language people spoke, and the main affinities seem to have been with the Latin-speaking Romano-Byzantine towns of the previous centuries....Certainly the tribes of the ancient Illyrians, political groupings covering large areas and heavily stratified with a powerful ruling caste, were quite different from the modern Albanian clans".

Noel Malcolm, "Kosovo a Short History", Harper Perennial Press, NY, 1999

"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."

John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992

"Today's Albanians have absolutely no connection with the Illyrians, but being examined from every angle they are proven as being fully Turks."

Ahmet Aydinli, "Balkan Biography IMXA", 1973



CONTINUTY BETWEEN BOSNIAKS AND ILLYRIANS (PRE-ILLYRIANS OF THE NEOLITHIC)


John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:


(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75

(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219

(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219

(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220

(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by PAO123

Can anyone prove to me that the Albanian language is not similar with Illirian since I am having an argument with an Albanian about it. Thanks

Everyone get in this argument eventually....

OK, heres what I used to use and worked out quite fine...
(I'm quoting the posts..so don't misunderstand them as directed towards you)


If we look at what some linguists have said, we once again see that the possibility of Albanians being connected to Illyria is "slim"

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.);
R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id.,
'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.);
G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).
-----------

The following scholars consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found..

Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.
Fasmer, M. The Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.

--------


Illyrian-Albanian words :

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMË, RRYMË, CURRIL, RRËKE, PËRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOÇAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VËLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHËM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKËLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDËRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTË, THANTË
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFË
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZË
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBËSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRË, DASHUR, SJELLSHËM

Sources for the Illyrian words:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.

English-Albo translator:
www.foreignword.com

It is also interesting that while we know that the Serbs came to their present area approx. in the 7th cent. (if not later) we find some quite interesting connections:

llirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant

Does this mean that the Slavs are also decendants of the Illyrians or is it only your right to have a vivid imagination????
------------------


Proof that Albanians are not native to the lands in question :

The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanians from the countryside.
That Albanian must have been widely spoken on the coastal plains and mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon’s initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the ‘barbaric Albanians’ are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they may not yet have formed the majority group.

Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian barbarians in Dubrovnik too, stating: ”In eadem dominantur Venetii, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii cismatici negotiatores qui sunt gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes”
(The Venetians dominate in it [Dubrovnik] and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).

Throughout its history from antiquity to the beginning of the twentieth century, Durrës had a very hybrid population structure with a strongly varying proportion of Albanians. Only relatively recently have the Albanians come to constitute a definitive majority there, and only in the last quarter of a century have the ubiquitous white hats which Simon Fitzsimons marvelled at in 1322 come to disappear.

http::www.elsie.de

1038, 1042, 1078
Michael Attaleiates:
The First Byzantine References

Michael Attaleiates was a Byzantine lawyer and historian who rose to high office under the emperors Romanus IV (r. 1067-1071) and Michael VII (r. 1071-1078). His 'History', covering the years 1034-1079, is a largely eyewitnessed account of political and military events in the Byzantine Empire. It was during this period that the Byzantine Greeks first took note of the Albanians as a people.

When the Emperor Michael (1), who passed away in piety and whose home is known to have been the province of Paphlagonia, took up the sceptre of the Byzantine Empire, the Agarene (2) people in Sicily in the West were defeated by Byzantine naval and land forces.
And had not the well-known George Maniakes, who had been entrusted with the general command, been eliminated on the slanderous accusation that he was hungry for power, and had not the military command of the war been transferred to others, that large and renowned island, blessed with large cities knowing no lack of precious goods, would still be under Byzantine control. Now, however, jealousy has destroyed not only the man and his endeavours, but also that enormous undertaking (3). For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...

Constantine IX Monomachos (4) proved to be more benevolent on the imperial throne than his predecessor. He conveyed imperial honours and gifts to almost everyone with ambition, and delighted his subjects. Suddenly storm clouds gathered in the West and threatened him with nothing less than destruction and expulsion from the throne. The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities. He caused great turmoil in the rest of the army opposing him and took it over. After having set up his camp at a two days' march from Thessalonika, he made his attack on the imperial camp in the evening...

When this had taken place and the usurpers had gradually calmed down, another disaster began to take its course and to spread like a poisonous weed intent on destroying the crops. The danger came from the city of Epidamnus (Durrës). The Protoprohedros Duke Basiliakes, who had been sent there by the emperor, having succeeded in avoiding Bryennius and withdrawing from Adrianopole, took over Durrës and assembled an army there from all the surrounding regions. By soliciting support for his side by means of substantial gifts, he succeeded in having the Franks enter his territory from Italy and attempted to make use of them for his side. By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika...

(1) Michael IV (r. 1034-1041).
(2) i.e. the Arabs.
(3) i.e. the recapture of Sicily in 1038-1040.
(4) Constantine IX (r. 1042-1055).

[Extracts from: Michaelis Attaliotae: Historia, Bonn 1853, p. 8, 18, 297. Translated by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 4-5.]

http::www.elsie.de

Note that Robert Elsie is considered the top authority in Albanian histoy...

Hope these help...

[HellenicPride]

Those Albanians trying to create history for themselves lol. They have absolutely nothing to do with the Illyrians.

[PAO123]

Thank you everybody.

[PAO123]

editted....

[Minimalistix]

i know its not of the language, but next time u argue with an Albanian, refer them to this - http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for....html#post6903

[Hermes]

Can anyone tell where comes these illyrians words?
its told that they hadnt let texts or sth else....or those are an invention like others...?
refering to roman influence there's an e.x : ''angry''(in english)
in Alb. its ''inat'' and in Latin (classic one) ''ira'' n~r
Before the classic roman period the Latin language has the ''t'' at the end of the word ,than in the classic texts ''t'' disappear. Illyria was invaded by Rome in the III-I A.D., the time they didnt use ''t'' at the end.
1)may be illyrians had learned all the old latin at school even they lived in the mountains ....
2)may be populations had moved or influenced in Lacium before Rome State.
Any other posibility?
About the phonetic rules in albanian, whose that such expert to give an argument, does he knows albanian to be in grade to explain its rules?