Kollias

[Orphic_Hymn]

This is a common list presented by our Albanian friends, composed by the lawyer Aristeidis Kollias, who wanted to play it linguist and attempted to refute the Indoeuropean theory (obviously because it destrys his claims) and by doing so link the Alabanians to Homer.. anyway, to keep it short, this table is continuously presented in various Albanian nationalistic fora.. so lets see a couple of the most stricking fallacies:





1) Nemesis, nemesaο (νεμεσαω) which he relates to "katara" (curse) ignoring that "νεμεσαω" = feel just resentment, to be wroth at, hence why Nemesis was considered the "spirit of divine retribution", with which the Gods punished acts of hybris.

2) andhano (ανδανω) which he relates to 'euharistisi' which is presented as a 'Byzantine' word, ignoring that
a) the form he selectively notes is Ionic (the dialectic form which Homer wrote in and as the comprehensive Liddle & Scott notes, used mostly in poetic texts)
b) is actually a quite ancient word since we come accross it in several texts and
c) its actual meaning. andhano = to please, to delight while 'euharistisi' = a pleasant mental or spiritual situation, satisfaction which is actually synonymous to hedomai = to enjoy oneself, take delight, take one's pleasure
d) he presents 'enda' as its corresponding Albanian word when it actually means 'yearn'


3) 'are', 'aroun', 'horafi'..
The connection doesn't say much simply because the word is encountered in several IndoEuropean languages, but then again, Kollias unsuccessfully attempted to refute the IndoEuropean linguistics connection which is obviously why he neglected to note the fact that we find it in:

Old Church Slavonic = "orja"
Lithuanian = "ariu" (to plow)
Gothic = "arjan",
Med. Irish = "airim",
Old Norse = "erja"
Welsh = "arddu" (to plow)

Now while "aroun" isn't commonly used in everyday speech even though all dictionaries have an entry related to it, Kollias neglected to mention that we find:
άροση = ploughing, tilling
αρόσιμος= arable (wow another word from the same root this time in english)
αροτριώνω= to plough
άροτρο= the plough

which are.


4) Bask 'ithi is a Homeric expression composed of two words "basko" and "ithi" with the first meaning "speed thee! away!" and the second "to go" but beside the bad translation, since the phrase doesn't mean "move towards" which is what "poreuomai" actually means, one can't but wonder how he'd find the connection to the Albanian"bashke" which means "together"


5) Another fine example of a word of common IndoEuropean origin which Kollias conveniently presents to support his theory even though he neglects to mention that its encountered in several languages of the same linguistic family:

Latin = foris,
Gaulic = doro "mouth," ,
Gothic = dauro "gate," ,
Sanskrit = dvarah "door, gate," ,
Old Persian = duvara- "door," ,
Old Prussian = dwaris "gate," ,
Russian = dver' "a door",


6) We move on to the distortions. Here "Thetis" is presented as a synonym to "thalassa".. Well while Thetis was indeed a sea nymph, her name and the mythology related to her under no condition would allow anyone to jump to such rediculous assumptions.

Had Kollias ever read Alkman's "Cosmogonic fragment" found among the Oxyrhynchus papyrus he would have known what the name is all about.

"For when matter began to be established, a certain passage (poros), like a beginning (arche), was created"
Alkman says that the material of everything was confused and not made.
Then, he says, there came into being 'he' (or that, masculine) who arranged everything; then a passage came into being, and when the passage had gone past, a sign (tekmor) followed. And the passage is like an origin, and the sign is like an end.
When Thetis came into being, these became the beginning and end of everything, and all things have a similar nature to that of bronze, and Thetis to that of the craftsman, and the way and the sign to the beginning and the end... on account of sun and moon not yet having come into being but matter (hyle) still being without distinction. "There came about therefore ... passage and sign and darkness. Day and moon and thirdly darkness; the flashings; not merely day but with sun; first there was only darkness, after this when it was separated "

So we find that
1) At the beginning matter was confused, there neither a Sun nor a Moon. So the Sidereal Cosmos as we know it was literally undeveloped.
2)Untill someone was born (Thetis) that put everything in place like a craftsman would.

Thetis = from "tithemi" which means "to set, put, place" hence thetis = the one who places'


8) Here we find the extremely rediculous distortion of the word "εκκαιδεκαδωρος" which Kollias attempts to relate to "hand", but of course the word itself has little to do with this fallacious mistranslation.
"εκκαιδεκαδωρος" = "εκ - και - δεκα - δωρος" literally "six-and-ten-doros" the term "doros" here, is used as a measurement unit meaning "palm" and not as a word used to define the hand itself.


9) An attempted connection of the Albanian dru = log, lumber, timber to the Hellenic "δρuς" = "oak tree", "δρυμος" = "an oak-coppice" wile he attempts to present "ξυλο" as a modern term ignoring not only its use since antiquity (we find it and some 30 derivatives in Homer's texts) but also that "δρυς" is oak specific and not a generalization applied to all types of wood.


11) One can't but wonder under which linguistic laws "edhe" becomes "alfiton"


12) The rediculous attempt to connect ene = utensil to "εννυμι" = "put clothes on" when in reality the word is "ιματιον" = clothes, garment which he obviously ignores is still in use.


15) Kollias has allegedly presented a list of Albanian words found in the Homeric texts, so we should wonder if he is actually using the Homeric texts as his sources. The only use of the word "φλυω" or any of its derivatives, is encountered in the Iliad 21.361, but there, we do not find the later metaphoric meaning of "overflow with words" and hence "φλυαρια" still very well in use on an everyday standard. But the original meaning of "boil over, bubble up: hence, burst out"



16) we continue with distorted "φριμα" which is again rediculously presented as a synonym of "φυσημα" and the Albanian "fryma,frima", while "φυσημα" and the Albanian "fryma,frima" may indeed mean the same thing "blow", one has to wonder how on earth he'd attempt to attribute a word which means "snorting, of any motions of rampant animals" to humans is beyond my comprehension.


17) we continue by again questioning his comprehension not only of the Hellenic language in its Homeric form but also in its modern. "χεω" = "of liquids, pour out, let flow" which is well in use today, is compared to the Albanian "hedh" = cast, dump even though there is no obvious similarity neither in sound nor in meaning, but also to the outrageously claimed "τιναζω" = "jolt, jerk" and to "σειω" = "shake"



18) since the word "terheq" = pullunder no circumstance, not even under the wildest linguistic approach could be compared to "ελκω"= "draw, drag, with collat.notion of force or exertion", he presents us with "heq"= "remove"



19) Albanian "iki" = "escape,flee" hence why "φευγω" is presented, rediculously attempted to be connected to "ικω" or even "ηκω" when they mean the total opposite "to come/ to have come"




21) here the Albanian "kell" which the only reference in the dictionary I've managed to find is "kall daten" = "scare to death" seems to have no connection, the word djeg which is given as a synonym = burn (verb, p.t., p.p. burned or burnt), but "κηλεος" in Homer is always in dat. form and seen in the phrase πυρ? κηλεω Iliad 8.235 and 18.346, Odyssey 8.435, which indicates that this is not σιμιλαρ το the verb to "καιω" (burn) but an attribute of "πυρ" (fire)



22) "korr" Albanian for "to harvest" rediculously attempted to be connected to "κειρω" = cut short, shear, clip, esp. of hair also seen in other Indoeuropean languages:

english: "shear" = "to cut off the hair from"
Middle English: "sheren", from Old English: "scieran"
Old Norse: "skera" = "to cut",
Latin: "curtus" = "mutilated, curtailed",
Sanskrit: "krnAti" = "he injures"




24) "κρηθεν" which is conveniently selected derives from "κρας" the strictly poetic form of "καρα" and is only encountered twice in Homer's texts, while "kari" is non-existant". The question here is why would they adopt the poetic form instead of the spoken form used in everyday speech?




25) the dictionary doesn't provide me with the meaning of "lehem", but since "lind" is given as a synonym we may conclude that this is yet another fallacy by Kollias.
"lind" = "to give birth" hence why he fallaciously relates it to "γεννιεμαι" = "to be born" but "λεχω" has little to do with the act of birth itself, but means "woman in childbed or one who has just given birth" hence why we find several accounts in Homer's texts of a "λεχο" = "a couch, bed" Iliad 3.448, 1.609, 1.31, 8.291, with the meaning of "bier" in 24.600...etc.



26) "λεπορις" is not encountered in Homeric texts but is a later form usually seen in Sicilian and Aeolic texts related to the latin "lepus"



27) "λασιος" doesn't mean "hair" as "μαλλια" which is given as the corresponding "byzantine" word does, but "shaggy, woolly, of sheep".



28) well I entered "lig" in the dictionary and got "i lig" = "evil", (as seen in the word in parenthesis) so one has to wonder where on earth Kollias got the connection to "λιγειος" which is a later form of "λυγης" = "clear, whistling" which isn't found in Homer's texts.


29) "λισει" is not encountered in Homeric texts but is only found in Hesychius' Lexicon (entry 983) in which the meaning of "play" is given as the 3rd meaning after "βισση" and "σταζει"



30) "lutem" in the dictionary has several meanings and a search gave me the first "please" as its most common use, but since it also means "pray" it seems connected to the Hellenic "λισσομαι" and the laitin "litania"



31) another classical indoeuropean word used to construct the connection. The Albanian "marr" and the Hellenic "μαρπτω" are also seen in the Latin "merx" which gave us words like the english market, mercenary, merchant...etc



Sources:
Homeric texts from TLG
Liddle and Scott Lexicon
Albanian dictionary
Modern Hellenic "Tegopoulos Fytrakis" Meizon Elliniko Lexiko

[Spartan]

Great research OH! Keep it up!

[Euklid]

Re Orphea ta xeis spasei ola ta konter re man...oraios.

[Orphic_Hymn]

paides please feel free to add what you find.. that damn Albanian dictionary gave me a headache !!! thats why I gave up at 31

[Orphic_Hymn]

After witnessing some of the outrageous claims that they made in a discussion with Flipper, I thought I'd add some of them here.. even though they all belong in the one-liners thread..

Xyston(histo-n) (Greek "spear", "javelin") was a type of a long thrusting lance in ancient Greece. It measured about 3.5-4.25 meter long and was probably held by the cavalryman with both hands

This the oldest name for the most powerful weapon of
ILLYRIAN, MACEDONIAN, EPIRIOTES(=PELLASGIANS) PHALANX

"HUSHTA"(the spear, the pike)------------------USHTA-R(albanian soldier)

The similarity does seem to exist even though the spear and the pike are two totally different weapons, but since they aren't claiming similarity but rather origin... "ξυστον" literally from "ξυω" = scratch, scrape hence why the Liddle & Scott defines "ξυστος" = shaved, sc. δόρυ) shaft, pole. If we were to look into the etymology of the first definition given, we'd find that "shaft" derives from PIE root "(s)kep-" "to cut, to scrape" which actually indicates exactly what the weapon was, a pole that was scraped to form a point.

now lets see the shield, dorian shield
hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs)

ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs(old greek)-------o pritës(alb)-----prite(alb)-----pengese(synonim)---ostacle(eng)

and it continues:

Pritës=pret goditjen :: derives from the verb pret=block
pres (kr. thj., pj. prita, pritur)

"pret rrugen"=block the way

so PRITES=shield, ostacle

a) οπλιτης has nothing to do with the sheid itself
b) "οπλιτης" literally means "he who bears arms" from "οπλο"
So how on earth does anyone claim that a word which literally describes the exact role the "οπλιτης" played, which was to bear arms, is related to obstacles and receptionists?

Doru (Greek: δόρυ), was a type of spear in general use in the Hellenistic world.Although accounts of the weapon's length vary, it is usually held today to have been between 2.1 and 2.75 meter long. It was held one-handed, the other hand holding the hoplite's aspis (shield)

Dore(albanian)-------hand(english)

"δορυ" derives directly from the Linear B' root "δορF" (f used for digamma) which means "tree" hence why beside the meaning of spear, "δορυ" also means "tree, stem" see Odyssey 6.162 " ἀνήλυθεν ἐκ δόρυ γαίης" .

elene derives from albanian means 1. e lenë 2. e lënë 3. e lash 4. e linë(dialect) 5. e lëni(dialect) 6., e lënësh(dialect) 7.(e) lënës

this is an adjective formed from the participle of the verb "lë"=leave, go
meaning is " e lenë vendin (atdheun)"= leave the country, the homeland.

and how is this outrageous claim supported some may ask ?

They are in continous movement, migration. They move , they dont stay in the same place for a long time. They move wondering the world.
Everybody knows that greeks(and albanians) have been all the time in continous movement. You find them everywhere. Since antiquity their colonies were all over the mediterranian.Even today they migrate all the time.

While I'm absolutely sure that everyone would love to know exactly which were these Albanian colonies that the entire world knows of ... lets just mention that the name Hellas is composed of two words "elios"= "sun and "laas" = "rock"

Palaicthon= palai+cthon=older than the earth

chthon = earth, ground, land, country ...when presented as a composed word "palaichthon" it doesn't mean "older than earth" which is impossible even as a thought but " he who has been long in a country, an ancient inhabitant, indigenous"

now the word argjiri=ar+gjiri
ar-----gold
gjiri-----the dative of gji=1.breast 2.chest 3.bay 4. land, the heart of the earth 5. gulf 6. nourish with breast milk 7. milk of breast etc. etc.

I honestly wonder if there is anyone that claims to be a linguist and actually supports this without having been turned into the laughing stock of the scientific community worldwide.

The root is "arg" = bright similarly we see the Latin "argentum" which obviously has nothing to do with a woman's breast.

Furthermore, "γυνη" derives from PIE "gwen" which is why we find:
Sanskrit: "janis" and "gná" = "wife of a god, a goddess"
Avestan: "jainish" = "wife"
Old Prussian: "genna"

What about Argolide, or Heraklide, etc
it means argo+lide=argolidhje=argoleague
from the verb "lidh"=connect, link, relate; derives the noun "lidhje".
It's still used in Albania ex Besëlidhje.

Quite a crazy theory since :
a) there is no word "Argolide" in Hellenic but "Argolides" and that is the first mistake since when you're trying to make any form of linguistic comparison you neiter present the word as it suits your theory nor take the declension which matches best but the actual adjective.
b) the suffix -ειδες is simply that, the suffix of a declension.

Furthermore, the root of the Albanian word is "lith" (to bind) which derives from the PIE "leig" which is why we find "lik" in Low German and "geleich" in High, its also the same root that gave us the Latin "ligare" and from that the english "league".
No liguist would support that a declension's suffix is related to any IE or PIE root simply because thats not how they find the probable liguistic connection.

[makedonskis2]

Ο Κολλιας υπήρξε από τους συνεπέστερους υποστηρικτές του Uck στη χώρα μας.
Λυπάμαι που οι θέσεις του αναπαράγονται εδώ μέσα και μάλιστα ως απάντηση στον αλβανικό εθνικισμό(!)

[Ehetlaios]

Makedonskis...

Ξέρεις να διαβάζεις; Καταλαβαίνεις τι ακριβώς έκανε ο Orphic_Hymn?

[Teukros]

do other scientists share his opinions.do his opinion have any scientific truth?

'elene derives from albanian means 1. e lenë 2. e lënë 3. e lash 4. e linë(dialect) 5. e lëni(dialect) 6., e lënësh(dialect) 7.(e) lënës

this is an adjective formed from the participle of the verb "lë"=leave, go
meaning is " e lenë vendin (atdheun)"= leave the country, the homeland.'

Helen or Helene is probably derived from the Greek word meaning "torch" or "corposant" or might be related to "selene" meaning "moon".

[Orphic_Hymn]

Τεύκρος

The example you refer to was a rediculous attempt to connect the denomination Ελλας (Hellas) to Herodotus' text 1.56 where he mentions:

The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far

.

Of course he ignores the fact that one is written with 2 L's while the second is with one and your correct note of the Hellenic "Ελενη" (Helen) being related to selene from "σελας" = "light, brightness" which derives from the root "σFελ"

[Teukros]

He might show a funny guy,but what he did and his fallacy are dangerous