Documentary errors and common misconceptions

[olvios]

Documentary errors and common misconceptions (written in Greek and English)

Geographical

All documentaries lack proper maps especially showing the Greek states
Epirus, Macedon ,Ionia, Cyprus, Magna Grecia, Colonies. Also Beyond Ionia lies the Persian empire and not Turkey.

The pontoon Bridge

There is a little known fact about the pontoon bridge of Xerxes over the Hellespont, namely that its architect was - like with Dareios earlier bridge - actually a Greek, called Harpalos (Herodot is strangely silent about the name of the architect in his Histories). His name is recorded in the Laterculi Alexandrini, a Ptolemaic papryus found in an Egyptian grave, and edited by one German scholar Diehl in the early 1900s.

The reference is:

H. Diels, "Laterculi Alexandrini aus einem Papyrus ptolemaischer Zeit," Abhandlungen der koeniglich-preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, philosophisch-historische Klasse (Berlin: de Gruyter, 1904)

Kaiadas

This was a chasm that those with miasma (i.e. murderers) were thrown in and not infants.
Infants that were cachectic and sickly were placed in “Apothetas� (depository) . Also note that Agesilaus the king of Sparta was lame at birth and that the fate of the “Apothetas� children was if they survived to become “threptoi� slaves in other famliles that adopted them .

The reference is: Plutarch Life of Lycurgus

Kneeling

Its not Hellenic to Kneel
He who kneels is a slave or a barbarian - Democritus

«Ουκ Ελληνικόν το προσκυνειν»
Όποιος προσκυνει η δουλος είναι η βαρβαρος - Δημοκριτος

War cries

The most common is “Elelefâ€� , «Ελελευ»

Ηρόδοτος VI,110
Ξενοφώντα Κυρού Ανάβασις
Πλουταρχου Βιοι παράλληλοι Θησεας κεφ. 22,Παρ 4, σειρά 4
Σουδα , Ελελευ

Post others as there are many

[olvios]

Can someone send this to the history channel i cant find their email?
Also lets write similar messages and sent them to all documentary companies.

Dear history channel

I have watched and greatly enjoyed a variety of documentaries from your company.
Me and my group also took part in the filming of Greece-engineering an empire and Greece-engineering an empire-Age of Alexander and our filming will be added in others as well. Of all that I have seen I would like to make a note of a policy followed by your company and many others. When presenting a documentary pertaining Greece the geographical area shown on the map does is not depicted correctly. “Greece� as a name is placed in attica or peloponese by the documentaries and this is clearly a mistake. I am knowledgable in the fact that even many universities in their inadequacy present such maps. To be specific Epirus and Macedon was also Hellenic and while this is widely known it is rarely depicted in documentaries. I present to you with a proper map and I will not go into details any proper historian should know. All this depiction of Greece as being only its southern part is no small thing as it presents an error of monumental proportions. I hope in future documentaries this will be corrected and if you have a standard matrix of presenting Greece you will change and update it to the correct one. Having seen your documentaries on Macedon you say they were Hellenes but it is not shown on the map as Greece in your other documentaries so you contradict your own work. This applies to any mention of Epirus ,Cyprus and Magna Grecia as well. I do not mean to be offensive but it is a fact.

Thankou very much

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by olvios

Σουδα , Ελελευ

Post others as there are many

From the Suda

Headword: Ἐλελεῦ
Adler number: epsilon,786
Translated headword: eleleu, war-cry
Vetting Status: low

Translation:
'Eleleu' [is] a warriors' exclamation. For indeed those going forward into battle would sound the 'eleleu' along with some rhythmic movement; just as Achaios the Eretrian, too, in the Philoctetes makes Agamemnon announce to the Acheans: "it is time to help: and I will lead. Let someone take the grip of a sword in his hand, and another with all speed make sign with the war trumpet: it is time to hasten, eleleu!"[1] Perhaps also the Callimachean [phrase] "give a customary shout to the god." is such a thing.[2] Aristophanes in Birds [writes]: "eleleu!,[3] run, let down the beak, where it was necessary to remain."[4]

Greek Original:
Ἐλελεῦ: ἐπίφθεγμα πολεμικὸν τὸ ἐλελεῦ. καὶ γὰρ οἱ προσιόντες εἰς πόλεμον τὸ ἐλελεῦ ἐφώνουν μετά τινος ἐμμελοῦς κινήσεως: καθὸ καὶ Ἀχαιὸς Ἐρετριεὺς ἐν τῷ Φιλοκτήτῃ ποιεῖ τὸν Ἀγαμέμνονα παραγγέλλοντα τοῖς Ἀχαιοῖς: ὥρα βοηθεῖν ἐστίν: ἐγὼ δ' ἡγήσομαι. προσλαβέτω τις χεῖρα φασγάνου λαβῆς, σάλπιγγι δ' ἄλλος ὡς τάχος σημαινέτω: ὥρα ταχύνειν, ἐλελεῦ. μήποτε καὶ τὸ Καλλιμάχειον, θεῷ τ' ἀλάλαγμα νομαῖον δοῦναι, τοιοῦτόν ἐστιν. Ἀριστοφάνης Ὄρνισιν: ἐλελεῦ. χώρει, κάθες τὸ ῥύγχος, οὗ μένειν ἐχρῆν.

Notes:
From the scholia on Aristophanes, Birds 364 (web address 1), which is quoted in garbled fashion in the last sentence; cf. rho 281.
[1] Achaeus fr.37.
[2] Callimachus, Fragmenta incertae sedis 719.
[3] So the MSS of the Suda and of Aristophanes, but for metrical reasons the original probably had an extra syllable: ἐλελελεῦ . The exclamation normally appears with only three syllables. See Dunbar, ad loc.
[4] This last phrase translates the Suda's οὗ μένειν ἐχρῆν. But what Aristophanes almost certainly wrote was οὐ μέλλειν ἐχρῆν ("It is not necessary to hesitate").

Reference:
Dunbar, N. 1995. Aristophanes Birds. Oxford.

By the way... nice topic olvios.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Alalas (Αλαλας)

Pindar Isthmian 7
For Strepsiades of Thebes Pancratium.

Original:
ἢ ὅτε καρτερᾶς Ἄδραστον ἐξ ἀλαλᾶς ἄμπεμψας ὀρφανὸν μυρίων ἑτάρων ἐς Ἄργος ἵππιον;

Translation
Or when you sent Adrastus back from the mighty war-shout, bereft of countless companions, to Argos, home of horses?

[olvios]

I emailed Pressfield about this issue
I sent him this

Dear mr Pressfield i have read and enjoyed your work many times over as it greatly satisfies me that you try to be as close to real history as possible.I was greatly dissapointed when gates of fire wasnt going to become a movie.

But i have a complaint to say the least.
I have seen this in movies documentaries saying that infants were thrown in when they werent.

Kaiadas

This was a chasm that those with miasma (i.e. murderers) were thrown in and not infants.
Infants that were cachectic and sickly were placed in “Apothetas� (depository) . Also note that Agesilaus the king of Sparta was lame at birth and that the fate of the “Apothetas� children was if they survived to become “threptoi� slaves in other famliles that adopted them .

The reference is: Plutarch Life of Lycurgus

In the last stand of the 300 the latest History channell documentary this lie is supported among other things. The number of historical misconceptions and lies whether they stem form mistakes or not is piling up in documentaries and even books.When is politicaly correct views and the common belief about something superimpose over historical fact?

and he answered.

Dear Hoplites,

You're absolutely right. It's too bad, isn't it? When I was in Sparta
a
couple of years ago, there were several tour buses lined up in front of
one
of the hotels. Someone told me the only thing they wanted to see of
ancient
Sparta was the Kaiadas. I guess the "throwing babies over" idea is
just too
sensational to resist. I agree with you that it, and many other
misconceptions, continute to pain the Spartans as brutal, militaristic
thugs. One of the reasons I wrote "Gates" was to try to even out that
perception with a little humor and humanity.

Thanks for writing!

All my best,
Steven Pressfield

[Orphic_Hymn]

Don't remember if I've posted these pics before, but they're worth a second time even if I have..

Kaiadas today



a pic of the finds taken in 1980.. all bones indicate fully grown individuals and NOT infants:





a scull of a male found in the chasm of aprox. 26 years of age






Iron arrow point stuck in a part of a fully grown male's scull

[Ehetlaios]

Originally Posted by olvios

«Ουκ Ελληνικόν το προσκυνειν»
Όποιος προσκυνει η δουλος είναι η βαρβαρος - Δημοκριτος

ΤΟΣΟ ΑΛΗΘΙΝΟ...

[olvios]

Λοιπον παιδια βρηκα κατι που δεν μου αρεσε καθολου.Αν και οι Περσικες πηγες επιβεβαιωνουν την Ελληνικοτητα της Μακεδονιας υπαρχει ενα συγχρονο ντοκυμαντερ του Ιραν που στην προσπαθεια του να μειωσει τον Εισβολεα-Διαβολο απο την Δυση λεει ενα απιστευτο ψεμα κακιας ανωριμης που αντιτιθεται στο συνολο των Περσικων επιγραφων και Γραμματειας.Το ντοκυμαντερ ειναι το "Persepolis Recreated" Ιρανικο στα Αγγλικα με συντελεστες μονο Ιρανους.

[Euklid]

Pou tha to vroume ayto to documentary einai sto blue-white?

Sto black-tracker pantos, den einai giati molis tora to epsaxna.

[olvios]

Για ενα αλλο ντοκυμαντερ History Channel Engineering an Empire ; Persia
γραφω τις εντυπωσεις μου αφου το ειδα.

Β. Όσο αφορά το Persian Empire πρέπει να σημειώσουμε ότι
Η Αρτεμισία ήταν Ελληνίδα και γι’αυτό την επικήρυξαν και ότι
Και ο Μαυσώλος ήταν Έλληνας. Ο λόγος που ονομάζεται μέγας ο Κύρος
Είναι η γνώμη των Ελλήνων συγγραφέων και των Εβραϊκών θρησκευτικών κειμένων.
Και ο λόγος που οι μετέπειτα Αυτοκράτορες δεν ονομάζονται έτσι άλλα θεωρούνται
Τουλάχιστον υποδεέστεροι του Κύρου. Είναι και πάλι η γνώμη των Ελλήνων συγγραφέων και των Εβραϊκών θρησκευτικών κειμένων. Η πυρπόληση της Περσέπολις ήταν συμφωνημένη εξ αρχής πριν ξεκινήσει την εκστρατεία ο Αλέξανδρος λόγω της καταστροφής της Αθήνας και η επίθεση κατά Της Περσίας ήταν αποστολή εκδίκησης
(ο Ξέρξης παρουσιάζεται να μετανιώνει την καταστροφή της Αθήνας αλλά ο Αλέξανδρος ποτέ – και στις 2 πηγές όλα είναι διαφορετικά ) . Επί Κύρου Η δουλεία δεν καταργήθηκε απλώς έδωσε τοπική εξουσία και ανεξαρτητοποίησε τους Εβραίους . Δούλοι υπήρχαν και επίσης ανήκαν όλοι οι άνθρωποι τώρα ως δούλοι στον Αυτοκράτορα ακόμα και οι «ελεύθεροι» . Βάρβαροι ξένοι είναι οι ξενόγλωσσοι ξένοι και όχι βάρβαροι με την έννοια των Ούννων ! Βάρβαροι Έλληνες όσοι δεν μιλούν την Αττική διάλεκτο και δεν έχουν αντίστοιχο πολιτιστικό επίπεδο με αυτό των Αθηνών. Η γέφυρα του Ελλήσποντου σχεδιάστηκε από τον Αρπαλο έναν Έλληνα στην υπηρεσία των Περσών . Τα άλλα θαύματα της μηχανικής των Περσών όχι αλλά αυτό ναι όμως δεν αναφέρεται .

Δεν υπάρχει αμφιβολία ότι η Περσική αυτοκρατορία ήταν Μεγαλη. Άλλα η βλακεία του engineering an empire( για κάθε πολιτισμό μια ταινία) είναι ξανά Ότι είναι γεμάτο λάθη ψέματα και βλακείες. Δεν αναφέρει καν τον Βαβυλώνιο αστρονόμο τον Κίδηνα αλλά περιορίζεται σε μια «κλοπή» επιτευγμάτων άλλων ενώ οι Πέρσες είχαν αρκετά και με το παραπάνω. Σε άλλο ντοκιμαντέρ μας υπενθυμίζουν ότι η Αρτεμισία ήταν Ελληνίδα και γι’αυτό την επικήρυξαν και ότι και ότι ο Μαυσώλος ήταν Έλληνας αλλά έχουν ήδη Χάσει την αξιοπιστία τους ως εταιρία ιστορικών ντοκιμαντέρ αφού αλλά λεν σε ένα άλλα σε άλλο. Τι μαλάκες.

Αν το δειτε θα καταλαβετα γιατι τα γραφω.