Northern Epirus" Between Propaganda And Myth

[TirAlb]

NORTHERN EPIRUS" BETWEEN PROPAGANDA AND MYTH


1. Questioning history
Northern Epirus is a mythic-geographical expression that, during this century, has acquired some pseudo-historical, and pseudo-cultural meaning, thanks to the efforts of fanatic political, religious and cultural groups and associations in Greece and in the Greek Diaspora. It now offers the base to a nationalistic doctrine, which represents the sum of all Greek claims of Albanian territories. "Northern Epirus" is the Greek name for those Albanian territories lying between the river Shkumbin and the country's Southern border, generally known as Toskëria in broader sense (i.e., including Labëria). The historical purport of this expression got the upper hand on its descriptive meaning as soon as Albania acquired the independence and had its southern border recognized by the Great Powers. The core of the Vorio-Epirote doctrine can be summarized as follows: the population inhabiting the northern part of Epirus, in spite of its speaking Albanian, is basically Greek, as is positively Greek all southern Albanian territory. The "true" Albanians, who are Muslim (or Catholic) belong therefore to the north of Shkumbini river. The doctrine, to justify its historical absurdity, tries to minimize the Albanian contribution to the history of the area. According to it, the only light in Albania's historically perpetual dark age has always come from the glorious Hellenic beacon. Therefore the Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians, but simply nomad Middle Age invaders, who later settled themselves as "mountaineer pirates," and survived by raping "virgin" Greek Adriatic cities. Most of southern Albanians are indeed "Albanian speaking Greeks," who have not forgotten their attachment to their Hellenic motherland. The ethnic Albanians, i.e. the Moslems, through all their known (short) history, have typically sided with Greece's enemies and fought for the destruction of the Greek nation, deeply ungrateful to that "historical" fact that all Albanian major historic achievements are due to the Greek territorial presence, religious influence, and cultural glory. Throughout the ages, Greece is supposed to have fought for the education of these ungracious sons -- barbarous, illiterate and without a history as they were. Allied to the infidel Turks, they allegedly were among the cruelest in suppressing with blood the Greek revolution. Allied to the Italians and later to the Germans, they terrorized Greece, and slain its best anti-fascist heroes ...

2. Crossroads

According to the Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires Northern Epirus, as a part of Epirus, is fundamentally Greek, because it has been Greek (Hellenic) since classical times. This represents, because of the historical nature of their claims, a main argument, although the ethnic tableau of the ancient Epirus is far from being established. Although a couple of ancient Greek and Latin writers speak of Epirus as predominantly Hellenic, other very important authors clearly distinguish between Greeks and Epirotes. Moreover, the criteria used by ancient scholars to determine the ethnicity of an area are not homogeneous and fully understandable. Often what they consider Hellenic territories are simply lands touched by Greek colonists, as it seems to be the case with Epirus. The ancient Epirote tribes -- Molosses, Chaones, and Thesprotes -- are believed to have spoken a language different from Greek, though it is not an easy task to establish their exact relationship to northern Illyrian tribes. Some modern linguists think there is a degree of kinship between the mentioned tribes and the Messapes -- a people of strange and still enigmatic inscriptions -- who had emigrated to southern Italy (Salento) since proto-historic times and have long been considered as related to Illyrians.

The character of Greek expansion during Antiquity was not a classic ethnic expansion wave. Greek colonies could not exist without prolific relations with local tribes and populations, and the very fact of their being founded here and not there is a proof for other populations being already in place, to trade with. Nevertheless, and thanks also to the benevolence of Rome, the Greek influence and cultural primacy in Epirus -- as in other areas of the Mediterranean -- remained important throughout the Antiquity. In the early Middle Ages, with the disruption of political balances created by the Roman empire, things start to change, as Epirus received several unwanted "visits" from barbarous tribes, which contributed in creating a kind of "primordial soup," out of which the modern Balkans ethnic map would be conceived. There is today indisputable linguistic evidence of a significant Slavic presence in the area, noticeable in the numerous Slavic place names (mountains, plains, valleys, rivers, cities, villages), though scholars do not agree as to the origin of these names.

3. Tosk autochtony

The Albanian southern dialect -- the Tosk -- with some of its basic phonetic features, was already in place, as it is witnessed by the phonetic evolution of some place names known to have been employed since the late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages. In fact, the Albanian main dialectal division is rather old, and in their most antique lexical strata both Albanian dialects do not show any significant difference regarding the phonetic treatment of old and Medieval Greek loans. It has been satisfactorily shown that even Greek Medieval (Byzantine) loans are often cultural, and hardly due to immediate and intensive population contact. On the other hand, the plentiful Slavic place names in Epirus toponomastics might make one think of the possibility of existence of isolated southern Slavic tribes (old Bulgarians), serving, concomitantly with Latin population (Aromanian) enclaves, as a buffer between Greek- and proto-Albanian-populated areas.

It is indisputably evident, on the other hand, that no Albanian dialect or sub-dialect presents nowadays traces of a Greek substrate, and this constitutes a valid proof that no Greek population in the territory of the so-called northern Epirus has ever been assimilated by Albanians, as the Vorio-Epirote doctrine wants to make us believe. Even the tormented Çams have probably been there since proto-historical times, for geographical linguistics assigns to their dialect a place right between the Labërishte and the Arbërishte (the latter as a common denominator of the dialects of the Arvanites), while historical onomastics explains their ethnonyme as the direct continuation -- within Albanian phonetic structure and according to its phonetic evolution rules -- of the name of the local river Thyamis. The scarcity of contacts between Greeks and Albanians can also find support in the established fact that ALL old Christian terminology in Albanian is of Latin, not of Greek origin.

The same current dialectal structure of Albanian, with its relative continuity and smooth passages between various dialects, is a further proof of old stable links between the above-mentioned dialects and the territory where they are spoken. On both sides of Shkumbin river -- considered by the Vorio-Epirote doctrine as the upper border of Northern Epirus, dividing Greek "Lebensraum" from the "genuine" Albanian one -- a lot of transitional dialectal phenomena are found, which witness territorial stability of the dialects.

4. Tosks in Albanian culture

The Vorio-Epirote doctrine is born of the Greek conservative cultural atmosphere. It is clear that any attempt to enhance the Greek legacy in the so-called northern Epirus is meant as an attempt to annihilate the Albanian Tosk heritage in southern Albania, or to attribute it to some obscure Ottoman and/or Islamic superstrate. The undeniable fact that the Albanian resurrection during the last century was also due to the efforts of a brilliant elite of Tosk patriots of Christian Orthodox faith -- among which Naum Veqilharxhi, Jani Vreto, Nikolla Naço, Petro Nini Luarasi, Papa Kristo Negovani, etc., whose work was later brought forward by Fan Noli, Themistokli Germenji, Mihal Grameno etc. -- constitutes for them only a regrettable proof of "racially superior" Vorio-Epirotes yielding their services to a culturally lost and corrupt cause: the Albanian resurrection. The Rilindja cultural patriotic movement in the South was related to Southern Albania being the cradle of Bektashism, a religious sect inspired by a philosophy which, thanks to its syncretism and eclecticism, and to its faith in enlightenment and tolerance, would serve as a catalyst to the cultural awakening of the entire region. The Frashëri brothers, Abdyl, Naim e Sami, who are generally considered as the apostles of the Albanian Rilindja, and who were born in a village of Përmeti, i.e., in full "Vorio-Epirote" immersion, could not have existed without their sound Bektashi background and faith. Of course, the contribution of southern Albanians to the making up of an Albanian cultural koiné is not limited to the anti-Ottoman efforts of Albanian Christian Orthodox communities and individuals. Some Islamic cultural centers, the most famous of which is Berat, were able to produce, during the 18th century, a considerable "aljamiado" literature, which for the first time in Albania dealt directly with non-religious motives and themes. On the other hand, it was the Greek religious obscurantism, fully supported by the Ottoman establishment, which would not allow the development of the Albanian script and literature in the South, in a time when important religious literature was being written and published by Gheg Catholic writers in the North.

5. The Byzantine legacy

From a historical point of view, Epirus, in spite of its being often under Hellenic influence, has always been part of some multinational empire. After Pyrrhus and his victories against Rome, Epirus had its second moment of glory with the constitution of the Despotate, after the crusaders took over Costantinople, and the empire had a structural breakdown. It is true that Byzance preserved for a long time its Hellenic core, but it is also true that it remained all the time a conglomerate of peoples, languages, and cultures. The same holds true for the Ottoman empire. If the Greeks succeeded in maintaining a cultural primacy in both empires, thanks to a solid dedication to their glorious past, other Balkan peoples saw in them hope for getting rid of the Ottoman yoke, at least culturally. The cultural center of Voskopoja, multi-ethnic in its scopes and its targets, flourished exactly thanks to these fruitful multi-cultural contacts. It was savagely destroyed by the Ottomans not because it was Greek, but because it could become a model for an anti-Ottoman cultural aggregation and alliance in the Balkans. We know of the very complex ethnic structure of the Byzantine empire. The Greek bureaucrats, soldiers, priests, and merchants constituted most of its notorious aristocracy, which is why we find today clear evidence of Greek cultural presence in all important Byzantine urban centers, to begin with Durrës. It is also evident, however, that the pyramidal social structure of Byzance mirrored its ethnic structure, that is, different peoples occupied different social niches. It might even be said that illiteracy, for which Albanians have traditionally been blamed, probably saved them from being entirely absorbed in the imperial Hellenic mainstream.

The Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires draw their inspiration from Medieval religious obscurantism, but very often their delirious claims serve perfectly the efforts of modern Greek chauvinism to create hotbeds of instability in territories of Greece's neighbors. Their use of historical and religious (pseudo-) arguments speaks for the worst Byzantine legacy reigning in their minds. It is unbelievable how in a country like Greece, that pretends to be modern European, one can still find such relics, survived from old forgotten times, and nostalgic of a mythic past that has never existed. The Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires are ambassadors of a world that has failed to pass through the European renaissance and rationalism, but has jumped from medieval mysticism, to extreme nationalistic romanticism. Retired in their delusional world of ghosts, old national hatred, and chauvinism, they keep on fighting with long-gone enemies, while trying to keep burning their anachronistic pan-Hellenic torch. Their Orthodox religious background transforms them into lunatic apostles of a rotten, medieval vision of Europe, while their political activities, whenever have taken place, have led to intolerance, fascism, and genocide.

As a matter of fact, the Vorio-Epirote doctrine often appears as an extreme expression of the mainstream nationalism in modern Greek culture. It seems that a non-negligible part of it seems incapable of overcoming the inferiority complex due to confrontation with that cultural giant of Ancient Classical Greece. Because of this inferiority complex, some people erroneously believe that modern Greek culture is the truly legitimate heir of this glorious past, while other people indulge in a ritualistic use of tradition, being unable to distinguish between symbol and meaning, religion and ethnicity, present and past.

6. Illusions and delusions

The big illusion of Greek nationalism is that Greek Christian Orthodoxy and the Orthodoxy-related structure constitute evidence of a population being basically Greek. They will never accept the idea of a nation whose roots for a long time have lain on common language orality. A culture for which ethnic roots are to be sought in religion and script will certainly fail to understand that for an Albanian, to belong to the Albanian nation, very often means first of all to have been born and raised by an Albanian-speaking family, with no religion and other conventional mythology involved. To the Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires, instead, the Church represents a sacred place where not only a contact with God is established, but also the essential "grecity" is constantly reproduced. That in Albania there is no religious institution dedicated to the task of establishing ethnic communion -- the role being long since entrusted to the laic school -- makes them believe that the full grecity of Albanian-speaking Orthodox population needs to be fundamentally restored. Therefore a frontal attack is needed, against the Albanian school and aiming at the introduction of Greek (private or Athens-subventioned) schools in Albanian communities, as an efficiency-proven way or readjusting a "fundamentally wrong situation".

7. A comedy of adjectives

Moreover, the blind obsession with names and symbols -- the same that led Greek foreign policy to that futile campaign against the name and the national flag of the ex Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia -- has made some of the Vorio-Epirote self-proclaimed leaders retain that even the Albanian national hero Gjergj Kastrioti was a Vorio-Epirote ante litteram, since he used to call himself "Epirote". It is well known, instead, that in the Middle Ages the name "Epirote" was employed simply as a prestigious title, whose purpose would be not only to stress the nobility of the bearer by relating him to a glorious (and mostly mythical) past, but also to point out his being essentially different from Greek or Hellenic. Such denominations, as "Epirote" and "Macedonian" were frequently employed, in those times, to design Albanians and Albanian language, thanks to their "antique" resonance, and indisputable cultural prestige. It is absurd to extrapolate and find in them proof of Hellenic descendancy and blood relationship. At that time no one had yet associated Albanians with Illyrians, and the "Epirote" choice seemed quite reasonable, because of geographical and historical resonance, and since it was highly fashionable and almost obligatory to be called with an old classical name.

Moreover, various Western European encyclopedic publications during the 16th and 17th centuries continued to call "Illyrian" the Slavic language spoken in Dalmatia, according to a principle of geographic continuity. In fact, in the epistemological context of the epoch, "lingua illyrica" meant simply a language spoken in the territories once inhabited by the Illyrians, which territories very often were identified with the Roman province of Illyricum. It is well known, in addition, that one of the first Renaissance scholars to have shown an interest in Albanian language, the great Italian humanist Joseph Scaliger in 16th century, says of it that it is spoken "in mountains of Epirus". The first Albanian writers, like Budi and Bardhi, while writing in Latin, always called Albanian "lingua epirotica," and the very title of Bardhi's Latin-Albanian vocabulary, "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum," leaves no doubt about that.

8. Minorities and forgotten minorities

One might ask how it is possible that the evident Albanian character of modern southern Albania is being systematically denied by a bunch of visionaries, fanatics, renegades, provocateurs and spies, objectively isolated in their claims, but still successful in seeking and often obtaining the support of public opinion in Greece. In any southern Albanian area you will choose to visit you will find a highly homogeneous, but still tolerant Albanian community, made up of Moslem, Christian Orthodox and agnostic sub-communities, which look at Greece as their natural economic and cultural partner, and which consider the Greek minoritarian presence as a good omen for further expansion of cooperation and friendship.

The all too frequent mentioning, by the Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires, of Italy and Turkey, as the two regional powers which traditionally have endorsed the Albanian national cause, and which were mainly responsible for the "dismemberment" of Epirus, betrays these people's true belief that every political development in countries surrounding Greece (maybe even in Greece itself) is fueled by the old controversy between Catholicism (Italy) and Orthodoxy on one side, and Islam (Turkey) and Orthodoxy on the other. In their words, Albania appears therefore to be not only a natural enemy of Greece's historical integrity, but also a simple instrument, or weapon, in the hands of two countries, Italy and Turkey, which have traditionally scared the conservative Greek Orthodox world, as political incarnations of Satan. This ghostly vision finds support, however, in true historical facts, for it is known that Greece has more than once been threatened by these more powerful neighbors. Incidentally, the Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires fail to realize that, in spite of differences, incompatibilities, and misunderstandings, Albania and Greece share most of their recent and less recent history. Both countries today represent centuries of efforts for survival by two ancient Balkan peoples; both have faced the same enemies, the same disgraces, and the same fortunes. This could be, and often has proved to be a good basis for a long-term relation of friendship and complete understanding between the two peoples.

From a historical point of view, the small Greek minority in Albania was probably created when southern Albanian (Moslem) land-owners called for workers for their land-properties in the valley of Drina and other adjacent territories. Its counterparts in Greece, ethnically speaking, are the Arvanites, whose migration to Greece is thought to have taken place through 14th and 16th centuries, and who, along with the Çams, constitute by far the truly forgotten minority in the region. The analysis of their dialects shows that their place of origin, geographically, is to be found, very probably, south to the territory historically inhabited by the Çams, i.e., the current Çamëria in northern Greece. Their existence confirms, again, that the Albanian Tosk territory is the result of a slow RESTRICTION process, not of an expansion, or demographic explosion. Some of the Arvanites have apparently endorsed the worst expression of Greek nationalism, but their dialects speak for them better than transient opportunistic faith.

9. The Himara case

As for the so-called "grecity" of Himara -- a small bilingual community on Albanian Ionian coast -- there is strong historical and linguistic evidence of Himariotes being no more than half-grecized Albanians. Because of their geographic isolation, the difficulty of having commerce with Albanian hinterland, and the pressure put on them by the Ottoman administration, they used to look at Greece as their natural protector. Especially Corfu, thanks to its being highly accessible, because of geographic vicinity, became extremely attractive for them, as more and more Himariote families started sending their sons to study in schools on that island, and merchants to trade with the local population. The Greek patois that is currently spoken in Himara and in some other adjacent village seems to be closely related to the Greek dialect spoken in Corfu, and several ethnologists have pointed out how the Himariotes make use of Albanian for special ritualistic purposes. Linguists dealing with the Albanian dialect spoken in Himara, have found in it traces of vocal nasalism, which, along with the use of archaic last names, such as "Gjoleka, Gjipali, Gjidede" (analysable in "Gjon Leka, Gjin Pali, Gjin Deda"), constitute proof for a very old Albanian presence in the area. [See also: Ethnic Legacy in Himara]

10. The myth revealed

If it were not for its being absurd, anachronistic, and often ridiculous, the Vorio-Epirote doctrine would have represented the most pernicious attack ever made against the very existence of Albania as a nation, and of Albanians as an ethnic community. Its major threat, however, is now directly related to its emotive impact on an already sensitive Greek public opinion, inside and outside Greece. It can and will gain credibility from the highly preoccupying political instability of Albania. On the other hand, it has profited, and will profit in the future, from a higher international awareness concerning minorities' rights. It might as well be gaining further ground thanks to repeated provocatory attempts, inside Albania, of transposing political controversies into geographic ones, and of associating southern Albania with communism, totalitarism, and anti-democratic subversion.

Since its creation, the doctrine has always functioned as a historical and linguistic makeup for the true anachronistic face of Greek ultra-nationalist fanaticism, and their diehard expansionist dreams. By making use of often distorted and even deliberately falsified historical, archeological and linguistic evidence; by employing the obsolete argumentative technique of infinite inclusion, implication and assumption; by the systematic confusion between geography and history; by the methodical mystification of reality and the paranoid refusal to recognize truth; by the manicheistic interpretation of history and foreign relations; by extensively relying on the notorious Greek egocentrism, the Vorio-Epirote doctrinaires have succeeded in including even their own theory in the global myth of Greek racial supremacy in the Balkans.

The fact is that they have taken the old and often folkloristic distinction between Greeks and "barbarians" and have overburdened it with racial connotations, though, from a strictly physical anthropologic point of view it is difficult to find a more mixed people the modern Greeks, who -- simply because of the geographic exposure -- include, in their genetic pool, Slavic, Albanian, Turk, Aromanian, Arab and Gypsy elements.

Their insisting on the necessity of opening Greek schools and of providing adequate education for the Greek minority in southern Albania can be explained with the special role attributed to Greek language inside the Greek global myth. Greek language, to them, is the sacred weapon by which old Greek supremacy and glory will return to the modern "barbarous" Toskëria. This language, especially in its written form, will work like a set of cabalistic formulas capable of awakening the Greek soul still dormant in every "Vorio-Epirote". And since they strongly believe that all these "Albanian speaking Greeks" (this absurd expression is theirs) lost their language because of historical vicissitudes, the proposed schools will be meant to operate like Greek rehabilitation centers, in a to-be-recovered territory. Incidentally, it is even more disturbing the fact that similar attempts are reportedly being made also by some offshoots of Orthodox Church in Albania, with the silent approval of Bishop Janulatos, and in clear contravention with the rules and by-laws of the Albanian Orthodox Church.

There is more: the Greek Orthodox church, which has always thought of itself as a body in which the sublunary sacrality of Greek language joins the divine sacrality of pure Christian religion, and which has always tried to bring the gift of the Word -- literally and metaphorically -- to the "barbarians" next door. The true Greek Orthodoxy needs the magic of the letter shapes of the Greek script to come alive, for it lives through the written word, in the written word, and with the written word. Therefore it is not fortuitous that the Vorio-Epirote doctrine has been welcome within the ranks of the Greek Orthodox church, which traditionally professes Orthodoxy not only in religious matters, but in written language matters as well. It is a strange myth, that equally, and ambiguously, adopts ethnic intolerance and love for the next, nationalism and Christianity, proselytism and genocide. Its superb historicism let it absorb everything that has taken place in the past, due to the assumption that -- so far as the Balkans are concerned -- only the elected people, i.e., the Hellenes, have been capable of transforming incidental events into History. There is, objectively, no direct link between problems related to Greek minority in Albania, and the Vorio-Epirote myth. The former are real problems, whose solution might be delayed if the myth gains terrain among Greek minority representatives and associations. The latter is a collection of dreams, fantasies, and deliberate lies, by people willing to use the Greek minority in Albania as a basis for the cancellation of southern Albania from the map. Of course, in so far as the economical gap between Albania and Greece will persist, the Greek minority will always be the focus of irrational disruptive forces, tendencies and impulses.


Ardian Vehbiu.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

The big illusion of Greek nationalism is that Greek Christian Orthodoxy and the Orthodoxy-related structure constitute evidence of a population being basically Greek. They will never accept the idea of a nation whose roots for a long time have lain on common language orality. A culture for which ethnic roots are to be sought in religion and script will certainly fail to understand that for an Albanian, to belong to the Albanian nation, very often means first of all to have been born and raised by an Albanian-speaking family, with no religion and other conventional mythology involved.

I disagree with this. Culture is more important and religion is a significant component of culture. There are many examples of this: Muslim Albanians with their Arab names and weird customs seem alien to the Arvanites of Greece, who prefer to identify with Christian Greeks. Jews on the other hand, despite their ethnic and linguistic differences (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mirahzi, Romaniote), are one "nation". And of course the Greek-speaking Muslims are not considered part of the contemporary Greek nation by anyone.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

One might ask how it is possible that the evident Albanian character of modern southern Albania is being systematically denied by a bunch of visionaries, fanatics, renegades, provocateurs and spies, objectively isolated in their claims, but still successful in seeking and often obtaining the support of public opinion in Greece.

I often tell the Albanians and Skopjians the equivalent of this about "Chameria" and "Aegean Macedonia" respectively, but it always falls on deaf ears.

[TirAlb]

I disagree with this. Culture is more important and religion is a significant component of culture. There are many examples of this: Muslim Albanians with their Arab names and weird customs seem alien to the Arvanites of Greece, who prefer to identify with Christian Greeks. Jews on the other hand, despite their ethnic and linguistic differences (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mirahzi, Romaniote), are one "nation". And of course the Greek-speaking Muslims are not considered part of the contemporary Greek nation by anyone.

As i have already stated,its about two different conception of nation we are speaking,and i don't see any deep Balkanian cultural difference,except for the language,and religion..personally i think religion is not important.

I often tell the Albanians and Skopjians the equivalent of this about "Chameria" and "Aegean Macedonia" respectively, but it always falls on deaf ears.

Well we don't call it Jonian or Southern Epirus,you do by calling our part "Northern",Fyromias by calling yours Aegean.You have to admitt the autor,hits almost all the Greek cliches about Albanians and Epirus in general,very common in this this forum too.You might not Agree about the contents but you have to admitt that it is a very well written article.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

As i have already stated,its about two different conception of nation we are speaking,and i don't see any deep Balkanian cultural difference,except for the language,and religion..personally i think religion is not important.

See it this way, I think you can appreciate Arvanites' reluctance to associate themselves with the state of Ismail Qemali (al-Islam al-Arabiiiii...) and the head scarves and circumcisions associated with it.

Let me add historical reasons that may have something to do with it as well: Arvanites repeat narratives of Arvanites being slaughtered by Muslim Albanians (Turko-Albanians or Tourkoalbanoi) during the Greek War of Independence. Tsk tsk...

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Well we don't call it Jonian or Southern Epirus,you do by calling our part "Northern",Fyromias by calling yours Aegean.You have to admitt the autor,hits almost all the Greek cliches about Albanians and Epirus in general,very common in this this forum too.You might not Agree about the contents but you have to admitt that it is a very well written article.

He embodies the Albanian chiches as well though: that there are no Greeks in Albania, only Orthodox Christian Albanians.

As for Northern Epirus, I don't see why that should offend you, that's what it is from the point of view of both Albanians and Greeks.

[TirAlb]

See it this way, I think you can appreciate Arvanites' reluctance to associate themselves with the state of Ismail Qemali (al-Islam al-Arabiiiii...) and the head scarves and circumcisions associated with it.

He was also a good friend of the King of Greece,and a strong supporter Cretaes independence during his years as Ottoman Governator of the Island.

Let me add historical reasons that may have something to do with it as well: Arvanites repeat narratives of Arvanites being slaughtered by Muslim Albanians (Turko-Albanians or Tourkoalbanoi) during the Greek War of Independence. Tsk tsk...

Americans fought with each other,40 years later,and they still live together.

He embodies the Albanian chiches as well though: that there are no Greeks in Albania, only Orthodox Christian Albanians.

I order to clash properly a extremist theory you have to use some extremist arguments,but he is not extremist in general.

As for Northern Epirus, I don't see why that should offend you, that's what it is from the point of view of both Albanians and Greeks.

C'mon we know the meaning and the purpouse of that term,it was created "upon request",not like Cameria.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

He was also a good friend of the King of Greece,and a strong supporter Cretaes independence during his years as Ottoman Governator of the Island.

Still though, he probably seemed more foreign than the Dano-German King of Greece in the eyes of the Arvanites.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Americans fought with each other,40 years later,and they still live together.

That's not really a good example imo. I think Serbs and Croats may be a more appropriate example.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

C'mon we know the meaning and the purpouse of that term,it was created "upon request",not like Cameria.

The term came about to refer to the part of Epirus in Albania, it's not intended to challenge Albanian sovereignty in some way. In any case, my original point was not the name, but the delusions certain nationalists in Albania and FYROM tend to have regarding the ethnic composition of those regions of Greece.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Draco

Still though, he probably seemed more foreign than the Dano-German King of Greece in the eyes of the Arvanites.

Because you don't know him,and his good relation with Arvanites,at the point that some of his political opponets accused him of being pro-Greek,and that he decided to declare an Albanian independent state only after his attempts to create a sort of Federaration with Greece failed.

The term came about to refer to the part of Epirus in Albania, it's not intended to challenge Albanian sovereignty in some way. In any case, my original point was not the name, but the delusions certain nationalists in Albania and FYROM tend to have regarding the ethnic composition of those regions of Greece.

Or some Greek nationalists about certain Albanian regions.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Because you don't know him,and his good relation with Arvanites,at the point that some of his political opponets accused him of being pro-Greek,and that he decided to declare an Albanian independent state only after his attempts to create a sort of Federaration with Greece failed.

Yes, the famous "manifesto". It contained verses like "Greece without Albania and Albania without Greece are half things".

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Or some Greek nationalists about certain Albanian regions.

That's what the author of that article said. My raising the issue was highlighting his (and others') double standards.

[Spartan]

No matter what Albanians like to think there is still a Greek speaking element within it's southern regions. That part of Albania(before it's formation) was promised to Greece, due to the people in majority who lived there at the time, through international Treaty. It was then taken away for who knows why and never ended up in Greek hands. There is still a large number of Greek speaking people in the area who have even created their own organizations for independence and or union with Greece.

So as one can easily see there was nothing 'created' by Greek nationalist when it comes to the Geographic region of North Epirus, since there were already movements long before then who wanted nothing to do with Albania.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I can't believe I just wasted my time reading this load of BS !!! but I can't help but make 2 short notes which prove that this individual is simply another one of the self-proclaimed scholars with little to no knowledge what so ever on the subject.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Linguists dealing with the Albanian dialect spoken in Himara, have found in it traces of vocal nasalism, which, along with the use of archaic last names, such as "Gjoleka, Gjipali, Gjidede" (analysable in "Gjon Leka, Gjin Pali, Gjin Deda"), constitute proof for a very old Albanian presence in the area. [See also: Ethnic Legacy in Himara]

Linguists who he conveniently neglects to name, allegedly ridiculously claim that Gjoleka is "archaic". LOL
Well its obviously high time that these so-called linguists (IF they actually exist) should look for the true origin of the surname in the Turkish word "gülle" = "cannon ball" hence why the surname Gkioulekas in Hellenic means "he who acts strong when in reality he isn't"

The fact is that they have taken the old and often folkloristic distinction between Greeks and "barbarians" and have overburdened it with racial connotations, though, from a strictly physical anthropologic point of view it is difficult to find a more mixed people the modern Greeks, who -- simply because of the geographic exposure -- include, in their genetic pool, Slavic, Albanian, Turk, Aromanian, Arab and Gypsy elements.

So the non-existant linguists are followed by non-existant genetists, genetists who ignore that there is no such thing as a "Turkish gene" and that Haplogroup H which is common among the Roma is non-existant in Hellas.. As for what this individual titles Aromanian and Arab.. I guess we can only hope for a sequel of this stupidity to understand his thoughts.