Greek Nationalism

[ZZm]

Interview with Ingeborg Beugel in the bosnian newspaper "Sarajevo-x""http://www.sarajevo-x.com/clanak/080514107

Ingeborg Beugel is a dutch journalist and an author of few documentary films for war crimes that were done in Bosnia and she speaks of the shameful part that played the whole greek media regarding Bosnia. She will explain all her experiences that she had with negating crimes, genocide in Srebrenica and the greek propaganda machinery that served Milosevic. This is about greek nationalism in the 90's.

Ms. Beugel, you stayed focused on Bosnia even after the war. In 2002 you made a movie called "On A Greek Way",in which you showed the public how Greece gave unselfish support of people that made war crimes like Ratko Mladic. Simply, why did you did that?

I fell in love in a greek, who was an adviser of Meline Mercouri, then she was the greek minister of culture, and she was known in Holland not just as ex-movie diva, but also as some kind of Joan of Arc that fought against dictatorship in Greece.I went to interview her in 1983 and met my husband. I lived for some time among greek political elite and I was impressed; the people around the first greek socilaistic prime minister Andreas Papandreu, like Melina and the others, were very intelligent, filled with enthusiasm and idealism, international oriented and extremely cosmopolitan. It was a time of hope and progress after the dark years of dictatorship and corruption of the rightwinged government. Its not just Papandreu made a mess in everything, but till the end of the 80's the government showed lack of efficiancy and it was corrupted like all the rest of them, btw I was amazed of the lack of interest of the greek public of the situation in the neighboring counties. The greek media, with few very brave exceptions, blindfully copied Milosevic's war propaganda. The greeks didn't have journalist to report from the nonserbian regions, NONE, they had only in Palama and Belgrade. They refused to read the foreign reports or use the internet for information. And when they did, they erased pages of reports of etnic cleansing because they come from "jewish, turkish and Vatican conspirations", which sounds funny now, like then. During argues that I had on the matters of Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Kosovo I lost many of my greek friends, because they didn't believe me of what I 've been saying in my reports that I conducted during my trips in former Yugoslavia and Albania. They were always bringing back the conflicts and the unresolved questions during the middle ages in the balkan and refuse to see the present.

"For the greek journalist I was an enemy"

Оne time in 1994, I was going on a road with a gorup of greek officials in Banjaluka and Bihac. The group wanted to bring humanitarian aid to their "serbian orthodox brothers" and with them were few journalist of the best newspapers in Greece. I was the only foreign. We past through a lot of villages and cities from which thousands of muslims were expelled, but the greeks were only interested of the destroyed orthodox churches. In one of the cities I found the last distribution punkt of food of the red cross, in some garage. Very sick and little fed muslims, who were to weak to flee, they got flour in plastic bags, their only food because they couldn't buy from the serbs. I brought the other greek coleagues of mine to the site. They saw everything as I, they heard everything as I; stories of rapings, burning of houses and etnic cleansing that the red cross took notes, anonioums, cause they had to stay neutral. In the bus all of a suddden I was "rejected", cause my greek co-travelers now sees me as the "enemy", and they even talked of the possibility to kick me out and live me to some punkt of drunk serbian soldiers. Two colleagues "saved" me when finally they backed me up.

Back in Greece I opened the newspapers to see what my greek colleagues wrote. Their stories were totally different from mine. There was nothing of the scene with the red cross, nothing for the city from which 20 000 muslims had to flee, nothing of the misery of the muslims, only one heartbraking story of the hard life(which was true) of their serbian brothers. I was surprised. How can the media in a full member state of the EU be so one sided? I called one of mine greek colleagues to explain to me ,why. Many of them said that if they wrote of what I wrote would lose their jobs.

From that moment I wanted to write reports of the greek attitude toward the war in former Yugoslavia but my employers were not interested: Greece was on the periphery, the focus of the dutch attention was in Bosnia and the war.

The muslim "sharpness", Greater Albania and orthodox solidarity

Ofcourse, during that all time I've heard all the greek arguments about the "muslim sharpness" around Greece - in the future theirs the possiblity Kosovo to unite with Albania and there would be Greater Albania, and then it would put Greece in the middle between their old enemies, the turks. Ofcourse here it was the greek argument about the orthodox solidarity and their old hatred toward muslims, the allies of the turks. But I didn't serously consider it in that way. The greeks were fighting without the "orthodox love" with their macedonian brothers for the name. And while their deep historical traumatic feelings and hatred toward muslims: Greece was the only antiisraelic and propalestinic EU member with certain relationships with the Kadafiet and other mulsim arabic countries. Greek bad feelings toward bosnian muslims and probelgrade feelings were more inspired by historical antiamerican feelings. The USA let down Greece during the WWII, they contributed for the greek civil war during 45's and 49's, and they backed down Turkey for the Cyprus issue. So, if the americans were on the side of the bosnians and against Belgrade, then Greece was the opposite.

Meanwhile the greek nationalism grew. One day my 6 year old son came home with a delay of 3 hours, he was excited and his cheeks were red. when I asked him what did he do, he answered that he had the most wonderful time: the teachers took them to the harbour - then we lived on the island Hydra - where they had to demonstrate. They were given banners and they had to shout - "Europe, get your hands off Macedonia, Macedonia is greek". My son didn't had an idea what or where it is Macedonia, he was to young. When I went to the school to complain against this indoctrination of innocent young children - they might even, for an argument, say to my son to shout that all the homosexuals should be killed or that women should not work - I was told that if I don't like greek education I should go back in Holland. After Srebrenica, when I saw how many of the greeks denied all that it had happened there, I did that. With a pain in my heart, besides everything, I loved Greece very much and I still love it. Its just that I didn't wanted my child to grow in a country that is so blind and nationalistic. I started working for a well known dutch magazine on the dutch public television KRO Network and because of my past, they regullary send me back in the balkan.

"On vacation with Milosevic"

Then happened something funny and extraordinary. In the summer of 1998, I was on a vacation in our house in Hydra. While I was lying on the beach, I saw a helicopter above the island. In the city I heard a weird story about the local pharmacist and his family, who went swimming in the bay Molos, further in the ashore, near the estate of a greek industrial tycoon. All of a sudden armed men pop out of the water and told them to turn back in another direction.He was furious because he didn't know the explanation of this. It was a weird atmosphere in the island, and I didn't know what it was the cause of that, but I was on a vacation and I let it go.Two years later in 2000, one of my friends talked. She said something like:" You know it was the last summer that Milosevic spent on the island". Then I found that Milosevic and his entire family spent 4 weeks in 1998, like guests on the estate in Molos, where he was brought in great secrecy escorted by serbian and greek special forces, under special protection of the greek president. Many people of the island were working for the family during that time and no one told me or some other journalists. All the island had sworn for secrecy. I was devastated. How can I, like one significant reporter, to miss that? I sensed a big need, one day, to do something about this great discovery.

But time go by. Now the focus was on september 11, Afghanistan and Iraq. So the things that happened in former Yugoslavia had started to fade away.

In Holland, the things were a little different: because of what the dutch UN forces had done(or not done) in Srebrenica, the government wanted a study about Srebrenica. When the report was published in the beginning of 2002, was so devastating that even our prime minister gave his resignation, together with the dutch government. Elections were held and it was formed special parlamentary commision. And like always, who in holland was interested about the greek attitude about the war in Yugoslavia - and for the last vacation of Milosevic on a greek island? And who would be interested for my story? I was just a small reporter with a strong opinion who no one wanted to listen.

"Greek bloody hands"

Takis Michas called me then.Out of the blue. Like god from a machine. He was one of the few brave greek reporters who had different opinion, and because of that his life in Athens was difficult. He told me that he wrote a book:The unholy alliance, Greece and Serbia in the 90's. Everything that I wanted to say was in that book. And more: He had found out that greek mercenaries were involved in the massacre in Srebrenica. He was my chance. I've changed the network, and went to work on documentaries in TV IKON. My new employer, on my surprise, was very interested on this, for then unknown role of Greece in the war in Yugoslavia. In october in 2002, during local elections in Greece,finally I could make my movie:On a geek way.

Sometimes you need few years to make a movie. You have to be patient and stick to your ideas, even when it seems so hopeless. My movie caused a very big rage in Holland. Many dutch people go in Greece on vacation and they didn't have any idea of what was going on. People in Greece were angry at me and ofcourse it was never shown on the greek TV. I'm very proud that now the bosnian TV will shown the movie. But I think that is more important the movie to be shown in Greece and Serbia. I hope so.

You've focused on the support that bosnian serbs got from Greece but most of the world didn't , they focused more on the islamic fundamentalism in Bosnia. Do you think that the story of the greek part is in the past now or is there unfinished job of telling the whole story?

Greeks still have a lot of things to do: no democracy can respect her self if she doesn't look in her own past. In Holland we had to do it with the WWll, just like the germans. And of course we have our shameful past in Indonesia and Surinam. It took us a lot of years but its still "touchy question". And we still have a dark history in Srebrenica, but some people took political responsibility. Its amazing how Greece after the WWll, in modern times, like a full member of the EU, could be so blind in the 90's about the war in Yugoslavia.

"Greeks were proud of the war crimes"

When I made the movie in 2002, a candidate of the socialistic party PASOK, who wanted to be a mayor of a district in the Athens suburbs, he put out a picture where he is with Karadjich, on his election brochure. He organized Karadjich's visit in 1994 on Athens which was supported by the church, political ellite and thousands of people. Кaradjich was still then on reign. But in 2002, he was officially accused and like Osama Bin Laden, together with Mladich was the most wanted men on earth. How can a modern greek politician, to get more votes, to show himself side by side with a men who has done war crimes? I guess he expected the voters to allow that. Many people that I know now have changed their opinion. But still no greek politician wont openly say of what happened with the muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. Nut there are still people like mr. Lykourezosa, former conservative parlaiment member and popular attorney in Athens, who openly recejts everything that happened in Srebrenica and he is proud of showing his pictures in his office with Karadjich, Mladich and Milosevich - one wall is covered with them. And many people on Hydra are not felling sorry that they had Milosevich as guest on their island. The mercenaries that participated in the killings in Srebrenica are known but they are not brought to justice. Greek cooperation with the tribunal is still very poor. There is everything in my movie. There you will see that there is still many "unfinished greeek business".

This documentary is still present till today. The people that made war crimes are still free and they still have support. How do you explain this?

I can't explain it. It is very shameful, unreasonable and very bad for the greek reputation and image. Greeks are proud and nationalists. Its very hard for them to recognize that kind of big mistake. When the media is telling lies in some country over a decade, when none of the politicians or some public figure don't stand up and do the things right, the process of recognizing and acknowledging will be very slow. One day in Greece someone will have to apolоgize. Like I said, I hope so.

How did you took the information that Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington plans to call the lawyer and friend of Ratko Mladich to receive a reward of achievement in the field of humanism?

Takis Michas sent me an email. I immidiatelly sent it to all the important people that I knew. Here is the email that mr.Bakker wrote to the Wilson Center on my behalf - mr. Bakker is a former dutch member of the parliament and former president of our investigation commission for Srebrenica:

Dear mrs. McCarter

It drawn my intention that your institute wants to call mr. Lykourezosa to be the chairman of the events that will happened on 15 of May.
This is a serous mistake. Like a former president of the dutch commission of investigation in Srebrenica, I was shocked not just of this planned part of mr.Lykourezosa, but of the way that you explain this selection though the few emails that arrived to me. He is with no doubt now, a supporter of the greek nationalists of the alleged war crimes that were done by Karadjich and Mladich which was wrong and unbelievable. Mr.Lykourezosa is representative of this greek attitude, and I don't think that this should be rejected.
These days, the world protests of the way how China behaves toward Tibet. People all around the world fight for rights and for the right decision.
But in this world, its amazing how of a non long ago genocide over people in Srebrenica by the bosnian serbs is so easilly forgotten and negated. The reason that mr.Lykourezosa is supported by many greeks is irrelеvаnt for your defense. That doesn't make theirs or his views acceptable and rightеous.
I urge you to reconsider the participant of mr.Lykourezosa, so you could avoid a historical judgement, which will come on your respectable and important institute.
Knowing the reputation and the goals of your former president Woodrow Wilson, which are quoted on your website, you must hold your self to it.

Sincerely yours

Bert Bakker
Hag, Holland
Former parliament member for the party D66(1994-2006)
Former president of investigation commission for Srebrenica

If this is true its a national disgrace!
Its in bosnian, but I think its pretty good translation!
Damn, I must be bosnian now!

[Bardas]

If this is true its a national disgrace!

Good call with "If".

Its in bosnian, but I think its pretty good translation!
Damn, I must be bosnian now!

Shall we now presume that you believe Bosnians are actually muslim Makedonskis.

It's actually quite amusing how you skopis, with your greater maps, accuse Greece of being overwhelmed by nationalism. Yet our far-right nationalist party, Laos, scraped through the parliamentary threshold with 4% of the vote, whilst your VRMO won a majority albeit in dubious election.

Gruevski knew by playing the nationalist card would solidify his grip on your nation. He also knows that as long as the hostility with Greece remains he can avoid tackling the real issue, which is the state of your economy and whopping 35% unemployment! So it's obvious which of the two nations has been overwhelmed by nationalism.

[Truth Bearer]

Hypocrtites of the largest degree these fyromians!!!

[Euklid]

Originally Posted by interview translation by Zzm

I lived for some time among greek political elite and I was impressed; the people around the first greek socilaistic prime minister Andreas Papandreu, like Melina and the others, were very intelligent, filled with enthusiasm and idealism, international oriented and extremely cosmopolitan. It was a time of hope and progress after the dark years of dictatorship and corruption of the rightwinged government. / Its not just Papandreu made a mess in everything, but till the end of the 80's the government showed lack of efficiancy and it was corrupted like all the rest of them, btw I was amazed of the lack of interest of the greek public of the situation in the neighboring counties.

Such abrupt change of tone, is certainly incorrect. There is either text missing in between the sentences or problems with translation.

[vlakas]

whoever wrote that made to many typos to be a journalist

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by ZZm

Interview with Ingeborg Beugel in the bosnian newspaper "Sarajevo-x""http://www.sarajevo-x.com/clanak/080514107

Ingeborg Beugel is a dutch journalist

...

If this is true its a national disgrace!
Its in bosnian, but I think its pretty good translation!
Damn, I must be bosnian now!

Show us the mass graves in Kossovo!

I think that the Greek media was correct: The west exaggerated the massacres of the Serbs. Only some cases like Srebrenica were real, but these were some years after several falsified reports of genocide, and that is why no mass graves have been found for the most of the allegations...

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

Hypocrtites of the largest degree these fyromians!!!

Why hipocrit?

Instead of you all be ashamed you just deny! You are really something!

She lived in Greece for so many years and she is married with greek and her child is part greek. Why would she lie?

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by Bardas

It's actually quite amusing how you skopis, with your greater maps, accuse Greece of being overwhelmed by nationalism. Yet our far-right nationalist party, Laos, scraped through the parliamentary threshold with 4% of the vote, whilst your VRMO won a majority albeit in dubious election.

Gruevski knew by playing the nationalist card would solidify his grip on your nation. He also knows that as long as the hostility with Greece remains he can avoid tackling the real issue, which is the state of your economy and whopping 35% unemployment! So it's obvious which of the two nations has been overwhelmed by nationalism.

[insult deleted]
VMRO-DPMNE and Gruevski are not nationalists!
Do you really think if they were so nationalists that would negotiate for the name.They would not even consider a not to talk about sitting on the table with you. Gruevski didn't play the nationalists card. He won because he made real reforms, fights crime(several former ministers or directors of big institutions are behind bars or on trial, including our former PM Vlado Buckovski who is on trial now), finally there are big investments, and should I remind you that greek companies bought a lot of factories in Macedonia when Gruevski was the minister of finance(1999-2002).
The real nationalists in Macedonia don't have real support, they got few thousand votes, unlike in your country who have members in the parliament!
So its obvious whose nation is the nationalists one!

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by ZZm

Gruevski didn't play the nationalists card. H

[Orphic_Hymn]

Well you could have found it translated here

Originally Posted by ZZm

In the city I heard a weird story about the local pharmacist and his family, .............................

Two years later in 2000, one of my friends talked. She said something like:" You know it was the last summer that Milosevic spent on the island". Then I found that Milosevic and his entire family spent 4 weeks in 1998, like guests on the estate in Molos, where he was brought in great secrecy escorted by serbian and greek special forces, under special protection of the greek president. Many people of the island were working for the family during that time and no one told me or some other journalists. All the island had sworn for secrecy. I was devastated. How can I, like one significant reporter, to miss that? I sensed a big need, one day, to do something about this great discovery.

So this "significant" (actually insignificant) self-proclaimed reporter (as her methodology and lack of comprehension of basic ethic guidelines followed by true reporters) based on nothing, no source what so ever, no proven account, nada, zit, zilch, but hearsay, and urban myths has come around to find that an indefinite number of islanders were allegedly working in the service of Milosevic and his family during his alleged 4 day vacation on the island.
Now thats indeed journalism !!!

Takis Michas called me then.Out of the blue. Like god from a machine. He was one of the few brave greek reporters who had different opinion, and because of that his life in Athens was difficult. He told me that he wrote a book:The unholy alliance, Greece and Serbia in the 90's.

Of course, who else but Takis Michas would be named a trully objective source.. a T.Michas (see W.S Journal article "Is Greece a Western nation?") that titles an entire nation as racist and anti-American because some 500 football fans burnt a US flag and booed during the moment of silence dedicated to the victims of 9/11 during a friendly between the Hellas and Scotland national teams.. critisizes the population, because some have adopted conspiracy theories promoted not by some Hellenic journalist but by US citizens themselves.. then again, M. Moore's Farenheit hadn't been screened back in 2001.