Northern Epirus" Between Propaganda And Myth

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Draco

That's a poor example because "nations" as we understand them today (and during the Greek War of Independence) didn't exist then. In any case, Alexander the Great described himself as a "Hellene", never as a Roman.

Who are you talking about? The Arvanites who participated in the Greek War of Independence were certainly well acquainted with the "Hellenic" ideals.

That's funny because the Arvanites of Greece maintain contacts with Arbereshe who claim to be Greeks. The situation of the Arbereshe can hardly be considered as clear cut as you are presenting it.

As for them being "ashamed to be Albanian", there you are prescribing what people "really" are again. Why the Arvanites don't want to be associated with Muslim Albanians with their Arabic names makes perfect sense to me, especially considering the atrocities the Muslim Albanians inflicted on the Arvanites during the Greek War of Independence.

No one is claiming that the Albanians have no history.

Daco,
you can say whatever you want. I have read enough about people being discriminated and looked down for not "being Greek enough," and the constant barrage of media about how bad everyone else is. Albanians were brainwashed too for 45 years. You will see that as Albania gets up in its feet and the new generation of Greeks lightens up they will start to inquire. As far as the roots, it is undeniable that they were Albanian. People of course have the right to feel Greeks or whatever.

I also know that it's easy to accuse someone you don't want in your country /i.e. would not assimilate. In Albania we go by blood and religion is of no importance. If we wanted to find divide it's easy to do so, but we don't.

And yeah, they sure were: all "Hellenes" and being direct descendants of Leonidas helped them in their fight. Come on. It's great for national unity since you're "one nation, one religion" but the average person was clueless. The elite and the Europeans of course knew.

[Melbourne]

The Arvanites have ALWAYS expressed a Hellenic identity since day one of moving into southern Greece centuries ago.

One has to ask the question, how under Ottoman Rule and with no need to conform to Greek authorities, did they not maintain they were Albanians? The answer is simple, because they always saw themselves as Hellenes.

As much as Albanians try, they will never have Arvanites identify as anything but Greek.

[Grace]

I know, to identify from the slavs, muslims and catholics. Deep inside they know. I was reading this book (google) how arvanites treat immigrant Albanians a bit better (or at least that what the book /those immigrants said.)

[Melbourne]

Originally Posted by Grace

I know, to identify from the slavs, muslims and catholics. Deep inside they know. I was reading this book (google) how arvanites treat immigrant Albanians a bit better (or at least that what the book /those immigrants said.)

This is a non issue this whole topic.

All historical records around the time of Ali Pasha confirm Arvanites were looked at as Greek by the Albanian Moslems such as Ali Pasha.

The simple fact was that Greeks and Albanians have always lived in the Epirus region, certain Greeks deny the Albanian presence, and certain Albanians deny the Greek presence. What is evident however, is that Arvanites had a separate Greek identity to that of the Tosk Christians, and clearly where seen as Greek by the Tosks and Moslems at the time.

It is simply revisionist Albanian nationalism that makes you believe otherwise. Furthermore, to think Arvanites who have been in Greece for 5 centuries are going to now supposedly find their "Albanian" roots is nothing short of comical, get that out of your mind.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

I have read enough about people being discriminated and looked down for not "being Greek enough," and the constant barrage of media about how bad everyone else is.

Would you care to share any of this with the rest of us? What "punishment" would be inflicted on an Arvanite for "not being Greek enough"?

I've got news for you, when it comes to being Greek, the Arvanites set the standards.

Originally Posted by Grace

Albanians were brainwashed too for 45 years.

How could they be brainwashed Albanians if they never considered themselves Albanians. A unified Albanian nation didn't exist ever until Italy and Austria-Hungary decided one would be convenient for them, thus the ideology of Pan-Albanianism was born.

Originally Posted by Grace

You will see that as Albania gets up in its feet and the new generation of Greeks lightens up they will start to inquire.

Yes, the Islamic resurgance in Albania is bound to attract many Arvanites. Allahu Akbar!

Originally Posted by Grace

As far as the roots, it is undeniable that they were Albanian. People of course have the right to feel Greeks or whatever.

Not quite, they were never Muslim you see. The cultural significance of this is immense, especially in the popular mind. What good is a possible medieval Albanian ancestry when 200 years ago Muslim Albanians were butchering your ancestors?

Originally Posted by Grace

I also know that it's easy to accuse someone you don't want in your country /i.e. would not assimilate. In Albania we go by blood and religion is of no importance. If we wanted to find divide it's easy to do so, but we don't.

And yeah, they sure were: all "Hellenes" and being direct descendants of Leonidas helped them in their fight. Come on. It's great for national unity since you're "one nation, one religion" but the average person was clueless. The elite and the Europeans of course knew.

What is Albanian blood? Illyrian blood?

"Blood" is irrelevant to identity politics because it is impossible to conclusively test it. I don't know what my blood is, and frankly I see no way to find out.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Draco

What is Albanian blood? Illyrian blood?

"Blood" is irrelevant to identity politics because it is impossible to conclusively test it. I don't know what my blood is, and frankly I see no way to find out.

you know what I meant by blood. I maybe in Germany but even my great grandchildren will (or should) say that "we're Germans with Albanian and xxx origin)

As for you second point: I suppose FYROM-ans if they really believe it and learn it in school, name airports, shun those who don't adopt Alexander the Great as their own etc. can be "real" Macedonians? It's safe to say that they have chosen to be /become "Macedonians". if Albanians can become Greek why shouldn't Slavs become Macedonians (or Greek if Alexander was Greek) ?
Why do they have to join Greece in order to truly become so?

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

you know what I meant by blood. I maybe in Germany but even my great grandchildren will (or should) say that "we're Germans with Albanian and xxx origin)

How does this pertain to the Arvanites though? None of the grandparents or great grandparents of today's Arvanites would have considered themselvelves part of the same nation as the Muslim Albanians. Furthermore, any "ethnic" ancestry beyond great grandparents is too obscure to have a significant impact on ones identity.

Originally Posted by Grace

As for you second point: I suppose FYROM-ans if they really believe it and learn it in school, name airports, shun those who don't adopt Alexander the Great as their own etc. can be "real" Macedonians? It's safe to say that they have chosen to be /become "Macedonians". if Albanians can become Greek why shouldn't Slavs become Macedonians (or Greek if Alexander was Greek) ?

Because FYROM is not in Macedonia. Macedonia is in Greece, Alexander the Great's birthplace and empire's capital city are in Greece, everything of note relating to ancient Macedonia is in Greece. They are usurping the identity of a place they have absolutely nothing to do with. If they did live in the relevant territory, then they could make a good case for it.

Originally Posted by Grace

Why do they have to join Greece in order to truly become so?

They don't want to join Greece, they want to annex Macedonia from Greece so as to legitimize their "Macedonianness".

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Draco

How does this pertain to the Arvanites though? None of the grandparents or great grandparents of today's Arvanites would have considered themselvelves part of the same nation as the Muslim Albanians. Furthermore, any "ethnic" ancestry beyond great grandparents is too obscure to have a significant impact on ones identity.

Yet you are the bearers of the old hellenic ideas and ancestry because you said so. This, despite having the Orthodox Church deciding what's "Greek"? Everything that is really Greek, had nothing to do with the Church. The classics are online, for free.

The church was getting rich with the Turks, loving the status quo, now Albanians are taking the blame. You do realize that the Souliotes were BANDITS, they ripped off Christians and Muslims alike. They also fought for Christians and Muslims alike and were betrayed by one of their own. They also were with Ali Pasha till the end, after being paid to fight for him. A Botsaris escaped through the window in the last minute. Yet, your church has managed to turn this into "Albanians = Muslims = Bad" versus the good guys. Of course no one wants to be bad.

Because FYROM is not in Macedonia. Macedonia is in Greece, Alexander the Great's birthplace and empire's capital city are in Greece, everything of note relating to ancient Macedonia is in Greece. They are usurping the identity of a place they have absolutely nothing to do with. If they did live in the relevant territory, then they could make a good case for it.

So anyone who moves to Greece can do so, like a Venezuelan? Can the Arvanites do so?

They don't want to join Greece, they want to annex Macedonia from Greece so as to legitimize their "Macedonianness".

I didn't know that. You mean parts that are now in Greece?

You are trying to pull the same stunt though. Arguing that Epirus was (or might have been) Greek ages ago and since you claim Greece, it must go with you entirely.

[Grace]

Regarding pressures to assimilate. start here. I know you may call it propaganda, but probably everything similar is to you:

"One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193)."

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html


>> Furthermore, to think Arvanites who have been in Greece for 5 centuries are going to now supposedly find their "Albanian" roots is nothing short of comical, get that out of your mind.

Many Arbereshe still do. He is one
http://blog.aacl.com/rediscovering-my-albanian-roots/
No one is talking about getting a gun and fighting against or leaving Greece and all of the sudden moving to Albania. Just saying, "hey, I am from there, for good or for bad."

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

Yet you are the bearers of the old hellenic ideas and ancestry because you said so. This, despite having the Orthodox Church deciding what's "Greek"? Everything that is really Greek, had nothing to do with the Church. The classics are online, for free.

The church was getting rich with the Turks, loving the status quo, now Albanians are taking the blame. You do realize that the Souliotes were BANDITS, they ripped off Christians and Muslims alike. They also fought for Christians and Muslims alike and were betrayed by one of their own. They also were with Ali Pasha till the end, after being paid to fight for him. A Botsaris escaped through the window in the last minute. Yet, your church has managed to turn this into "Albanians = Muslims = Bad" versus the good guys. Of course no one wants to be bad.

Here is my assessment of the situation: The meaning of "Greek" has evolved through time. Modern Greeks are based on the Greek-speaking Christians living in the territory in which ancient Greek civilization. Other Christians (like Arvanites and Vlachs) can "join" (i.e. assimilate), but will eventually have to give up their original languages. The church's job seems to be to install a willingness to join in those populations. Greek-speaking Muslims (such as those in the Dodecanese) are not considered Greeks but Turks instead.

Originally Posted by Grace

So anyone who moves to Greece can do so, like a Venezuelan?

I'd imagine the Venezualan's family living in Greece for a number of generations would be required.

Originally Posted by Grace

Can the Arvanites do so?

The Arvanites did so.

Originally Posted by Grace

I didn't know that. You mean parts that are now in Greece?

You are trying to pull the same stunt though. Arguing that Epirus was (or might have been) Greek ages ago and since you claim Greece, it must go with you entirely.

I think the claims to North Epirus are based on the Greek and Albanian-speaking (Arvanite) Christian Greek populations living there.

If no Greek people are living in the relevant area, there can be no claim. Western Asia Minor is an example of this, when there still were Greeks living there, Greek governments sought to annex the region, when they were expelled in the 1920s, the irredentism ceased (except in certain marginal fringe circles).