Northern Epirus" Between Propaganda And Myth

[TirAlb]

[quote=Orphic_Hymn;76806]I can't believe I just wasted my time reading this load of BS !!! but I can't help but make 2 short notes which prove that this individual is simply another one of the self-proclaimed scholars with little to no knowledge what so ever on the subject.

Linguists who he conveniently neglects to name, allegedly ridiculously claim that Gjoleka is "archaic". LOL
Well its obviously high time that these so-called linguists (IF they actually exist) should look for the true origin of the surname in the Turkish word "gülle" = "cannon ball" hence why the surname Gkioulekas in Hellenic means "he who acts strong when in reality he isn't"

Gjoleka is just a catholic Albanian name,union of John and Leka(Aleksander),it is still used By Catholics in North Albania.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Gjoleka is just a catholic Albanian name,union of John and Leka(Aleksander),it is still used By Catholics in North Albania.

There isn't much I can do when I quote the Tegopoulos-Futrakis "Major Hellenic Lexicon" and you collate Ardian Vehbiu.
But since you mention Catholic Albanians.. would you probably be talking about the Mirdites ?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

There isn't much I can do when I quote the Tegopoulos-Futrakis "Major Hellenic Lexicon" and you collate Ardian Vehbiu.
But since you mention Catholic Albanians.. would you probably be talking about the Mirdites ?

I think you can do better,btw that interpretation was very funny.
Yes im talking about Mirditors,but not only.May i know why are you asking?!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I think you can do better,btw that interpretation was very funny.
Yes im talking about Mirditors,but not only.May i know why are you asking?!

I can do better?
Yeah whatever you say..

Anyway, for the Mirdites, the reason for the question is simple. Mirdites were well known to have intermixed in mass with Turks (well known for abducting and marrying Turkish women after having baptising them). So seeing the influence of Turkish language upon them is no real suprise even though, in reality, a loan either having intermixed or not shouldn't be.

[TirAlb]

I can do better?
Yeah whatever you say..

Well i understand that since Gjoleka is common among Arvanites you would prefer it to be a Turkish,name for cannon ball,rather than a simply composite Albanian name.

Anyway, for the Mirdites, the reason for the question is simple. Mirdites were well known to have intermixed in mass with Turks (well known for abducting and marrying Turkish women after having baptising them). So seeing the influence of Turkish language upon them is no real suprise even though, in reality, a loan either having intermixed or not shouldn't be.

Were did you read that,on Wikipedia?Don't rely to much on it,Mirdita hardly intermarried with other Catholic Regions,so claiming that they did it with moslems and Turks is quite impossible.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Well i understand that since Gjoleka is common among Arvanites you would prefer it to be a Turkish,name for cannon ball,rather than a simply composite Albanian name.

Sorry but my only interest is in historic reality and yours, just like the author of this trash article, is the celebration of your inferiority complex.. continuous claims upon people that not only loath you but wouldn't even hear of having any form of relation with you.. So dear TirAlb.. tell me who's the fool in this picture, he who suports the obvious or he (meaning YOU) that makes absurd claims ?

Were did you read that,on Wikipedia?Don't rely to much on it,Mirdita hardly intermarried with other Catholic Regions,so claiming that they did it with moslems and Turks is quite impossible.

See little one unlike you some comprehend the value of knowledge while others are prone to sources influenced by propaganda (stop being a google grad driven by wiki crap articles and read a source worth noting).
So do tell why would the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA support what you consider either hearsay or stupid propaganda???

Long ago the Mirdites were wont to carry off Turkish girls of good family and, after baptizing them, made them their wives, so that there is a strong strain of Turkish blood in the Catholic Mirdites of to-day. This tribe has special privileges, such as the place of honour in the Sultan's army under the command of its own chieftain.

Do you really want me to waste my va;uable time (hence my abcense from this fora) and take apart this article point by point and prove that both you that posted it and the author are nothing more than historically illiterate fools?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Sorry but my only interest is in historic reality and yours, just like the author of this trash article, is the celebration of your inferiority complex.. continuous claims upon people that not only loath you but wouldn't even hear of having any form of relation with you.. So dear TirAlb.. tell me who's the fool in this picture, he who suports the obvious or he (meaning YOU) that makes absurd claims ?

I doubt it,im not sure but i think you was the one trying to prove that Arvanites and Albanians were two different people since the beginning,i have heard such theories before from people that we might call ultra-nationalists. And now you are again bringing these freaky theories about the supposed Turkish origin of the name Gjoleka .I know the game,when it can’t be Greek ,it is Turkish or Albanian ( when Turks are the topic),or indoeuropian, or latin or slav, or just balkanian everything but Albanian.I don’t know how to call it “inferiority” or “superiority” for sure it is a complex of yours ,a big one.Its not hard to understand that the thread ,is mainly political, as “North Epirus” is,im not hideing it and my post is just a newspaper article,a well written one though,whatever you may say.

See little one unlike you some comprehend the value of knowledge while others are prone to sources influenced by propaganda (stop being a google grad driven by wiki crap articles and read a source worth noting).
So do tell why would the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA support what you consider either hearsay or stupid propaganda???

Oh don’t worry "some" i understand the value of knowledge , even though i don’t have problems to admit my ignorance unlike you, big one, conceited enough, to address others as inferiors or “little”... And for me everything i find interesting is worth to read, wikipedia included, because i don’t have bias and i’m intelligent enough (i said i’m ignorant ,not stupid ),to draw my own conclusions.
I would think twice, before calling an encyclopedia a source, in fact its not,it is made of sources, so show me the primary one an let see if it is reliable .But im not asking that to you, obviously you know nothing about Mirdita , or Albania in general. Well im Albanian and of Mirditor origin, and i was aware of your insinuation,that’s why after you mentioned them,i asked you further explanation,sure of what you was going to write. Well the only place were you can find that “information” is the net, whether wiki or catholic enc.,and since your link wasn’t a self-made scanning,i have to assume that you too,are a google grade dude.

Do you really want me to waste my va;uable time (hence my abcense from this fora) and take apart this article point by point and prove that both you that posted it and the author are nothing more than historically illiterate fools?

I doubt you would be able to give valuable answers,since the first remark you made so far was that poor one about the improbable origin of the name Gjoleka. And btw please don’t do it,because my answers would be longer than usual and that means also a bigger waste of time for me.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I doubt it,im not sure but i think you was the one trying to prove that Arvanites and Albanians were two different people since the beginning,i have heard such theories before from people that we might call ultra-nationalists.

Nice way to start.. Yes I do support the theory that suggests that the Arvanites are not Hellenized but indeed partly Hellenic in origin and have cited more than a few sources which neither you nor any single one of those that throw the "ultra-nationalist" label so easily have been able to refute. So until you do, I'd suggest you avoid throwing such labels or simply keep them for yourself.

And now you are again bringing these freaky theories about the supposed Turkish origin of the name Gjoleka .I know the game,when it can’t be Greek ,it is Turkish or Albanian ( when Turks are the topic),or indoeuropian, or latin or slav, or just balkanian everything but Albanian.

Your problem is that driven by the above mentioned label you threw with such ease, you strive to denounce well documented facts such as the influence of other languages upon your own and in the process even attempt to refute the well established linguistic connection of IE languages due to some ridiculous need to present yourselves as the "archaic people" of the region (think damn it.. if your version is the correct one, how does a last name composed of John constitute proof of archaic presence?).
Noone denies that the population of Epirus does indeed depict certain cultural features that are indeed Albanian, nor that their use of the language may indeed constitute proof of intermixing. But that is one thing and your continuous strife to associate yourself to a people that in reality don't even care about you a totally different issue all together.

I don’t know how to call it “inferiority” or “superiority” for sure it is a complex of yours ,a big one.Its not hard to understand that the thread ,is mainly political, as “North Epirus” is,im not hideing it and my post is just a newspaper article,a well written one though,whatever you may say.

Sorry to break it to you, but I have no form of complexes what so ever.. as for the thread and the article itself, its purpose is evident, every single rambling of the of unknown credentials author reeks propaganda.
Just look at it.. from "Tosk autochthony", to "archaic surnames" and then to unsupported genetics which are nothing more than a bad copy of the FYROMian "we were here before you" promoted through their trashed genetics paper.

Oh don’t worry "some" i understand the value of knowledge , even though i don’t have problems to admit my ignorance unlike you, big one, conceited enough, to address others as inferiors or “little”... And for me everything i find interesting is worth to read, wikipedia included, because i don’t have bias and i’m intelligent enough (i said i’m ignorant ,not stupid ),to draw my own conclusions.
I would think twice, before calling an encyclopedia a source, in fact its not,it is made of sources, so show me the primary one an let see if it is reliable .But im not asking that to you, obviously you know nothing about Mirdita , or Albania in general. Well im Albanian and of Mirditor origin, and i was aware of your insinuation,that’s why after you mentioned them,i asked you further explanation,sure of what you was going to write. Well the only place were you can find that “information” is the net, whether wiki or catholic enc.,and since your link wasn’t a self-made scanning,i have to assume that you too,are a google grade dude.

Since the comparison attempted to be made here is obvious.. do explain since when is wiki a far more valuable source than any online encyclopedia (true online, but a real encyclopedia none the less)?
I said that the name is of Turkish origin, you claimed its Catholic and after clarifying that its specifically used by the Mirdites, I suggested that its possible that due to the noted intermixing between Mirdites-Turks thats how the name may have appeared.. so whats the insinuation ?

I doubt you would be able to give valuable answers,since the first remark you made so far was that poor one about the improbable origin of the name Gjoleka. And btw please don’t do it,because my answers would be longer than usual and that means also a bigger waste of time for me.

You doubt but plead that I don't do it... now thats an interesting approach.
Improbable.. yeah OK, but archaic NOT and thus his whole argument is worthless. Well you might not like it, and thats obviously not because you'll get into long responces (which you never have, well at least not when talking to me) but I'll get into it after the weekend.. simply don't have the time right now.

[Orphic_Hymn]

As promised TirAlb, I'm back to comment unfortunately due to lack of time I'll keep it relatively short and come back for a part 2,3,4..etc

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Ardian Vehbiu.

First question is why add the name "Ardian Vehbiu" to this article when Pluku's site that hosts it clarifies:

[previously published under a pseudonim in the Albanian newspaper "Illyria", in New York]

and "A l b a N e w s" that hosts the original clarifies that the author's pseudonym is:

"Dan Gjirokastriti
teacher from Gjirokastra"

Would this be an attempt to add credibility since he's the author of a book (as if that makes him a credible source)?

Anyway lets continue looking at this propaganda article you speak so fondly of...

The historical purport of this expression got the upper hand on its descriptive meaning as soon as Albania acquired the independence and had its southern border recognized by the Great Powers. The core of the Vorio-Epirote doctrine can be summarized as follows: the population inhabiting the northern part of Epirus, in spite of its speaking Albanian, is basically Greek, as is positively Greek all southern Albanian territory.

Exactly what independence is he refering to, that of a nation who's borders remained undefined?

Treaty of London of May 30th 1913:

Art. 3
His Majesty the Emperor of the Ottomans and their Majesties the Allied Sovereigns declare that they remit to His Majesty the Emperor of Germany; His Majesty the Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary; the President of the French Republic; His Majesty the King of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of India; His Majesty the King of Italy; and His Majesty the Emperor of All the Russias the matter of arranging the delimitation of the frontiers of Albania and all other questions concerning Albania.

a nation who's sovereignity is defied by the very same powers that allegedly supported its formation?
Italy occupies Valona and has it granted to her (including other areas) as a protectorate under the "London Pact", France occupies and establishes an "Independent Republic" at Koritsa... Powers who only made decisions on the borders a decade later? (finally resolved on November 9, 1921)..Yeah, evil Hellenes did it again..

Therefore the Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians, but simply nomad Middle Age invaders, who later settled themselves as "mountaineer pirates," and survived by raping "virgin" Greek Adriatic cities.

The author of this article should have known that this theory isn't even cited by Hellenic scholars but by Slavs with its beginning laying in both your "scholar's" attempts to associate your peoples with the Illyrians.

Most of southern Albanians are indeed "Albanian speaking Greeks," who have not forgotten their attachment to their Hellenic motherland.

According to the historic demographics of the region.. In 1918 the census conducted by the Austrian Franz Seiner, we find that Albania had a total population of 800,000 out of which according to data presented at the Paris Peace Conference the Hellenic minority was composed of some 120.000 souls. Simple math indicates that over 10% of the total population were accounted for as ethnic Hellenes..

Allied to the infidel Turks, they allegedly were among the cruelest in suppressing with blood the Greek revolution. Allied to the Italians and later to the Germans, they terrorized Greece, and slain its best anti-fascist heroes .

George Finlay "History of the Greek Revolution" has written




Mark Mazower "After the War was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation, and State in Greece 1943-1960" p,25 sees it differently:

"Not suprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in
1941, they found Cham activists will to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundreds were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal
Komitare to act as local gardarmes. From the autumn of 1943 these armed
bands took part alongside the Whermacht in buring Greek villages."

So either he likes it or not, history can not be re-written.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

As promised TirAlb, I'm back to comment unfortunately due to lack of time I'll keep it relatively short and come back for a part 2,3,4..etc


First question is why add the name "Ardian Vehbiu" to this article when Pluku's site that hosts it clarifies:

[previously published under a pseudonim in the Albanian newspaper "Illyria", in New York]

and "A l b a N e w s" that hosts the original clarifies that the author's pseudonym is:

"Dan Gjirokastriti
teacher from Gjirokastra"

Would this be an attempt to add credibility since he's the author of a book (as if that makes him a credible source)?

Anyway lets continue looking at this propaganda article you speak so fondly of...

http://members.aol.com/Plaku/toc.htm

If you take a look to the bottom of the page you will see:

All documents ©1998 Ardian Vehbiu & Tattoo Interactive Inc.

Both Dan Gjirokastiti and Plaku are nicknames.

Exactly what independence is he refering to, that of a nation who's borders remained undefined?



a nation who's sovereignity is defied by the very same powers that allegedly supported its formation?
Italy occupies Valona and has it granted to her (including other areas) as a protectorate under the "London Pact", France occupies and establishes an "Independent Republic" at Koritsa... Powers who only made decisions on the borders a decade later? (finally resolved on November 9, 1921)..Yeah, evil Hellenes did it again..

Theres a phrase from a famous Albanian catholic priest,that says "Moj evrop moj Kurv e motit",literally meaning "hey Europe,hey old bitch".So none is saying that Greeks were the evil ones,or at least not the onlys.Greeks were the ones doing the dirty job,directly on the ground,the others were just playing dirty from their offices. Howevere the Albanian existence was recognised and its borders in general lines were decided,thats why your army withdrawed,from south Albania.

This is the final document about Albania:

1.
Albania is constituted as an autonomous, sovereign and hereditary principality by right of primogeniture, guaranteed by the six Powers. The sovereign will be designated by the six Powers.

2.
Any form of suzerainty between Turkey and Albania is excluded.

3.
Albania is neutral; its neutrality is guaranteed by the six Powers.

4.
The control of the civil administration and finances of Albania is to be given over to an International Commission composed of the delegates of the six Powers and one delegate from Albania.

5.
The powers of this commission will last for ten years and may be extended if necessary.

6.
The commission will be charged with preparing a draft for the detailed organisation of all branches of the administration of Albania. Within six months, it will present to the Powers a report on the results of its work and its decisions on the administrative and financial organization of the country.

7.
The sovereign is to be nominated within six months. Until his designation and until the formation of a definitive national government, the activities of the existing local authorities and the gendarmerie will be controlled by the International Commission.

8.
Public order and security will be assured by the international organisation of a gendarmerie. This organisation will be in the hands of foreign officers who will exercise effective command in the gendarmerie.

9.
These officers will be selected from the Swedish army.

10.
The mission of the foreign officers and instructors will not interfere with the unity of service, or with the employment of native commissioned and non-commissioned officers and gendarmes.

11.
The salaries of these officers may be ensured from the revenue of the country as guaranteed by the Powers

The author of this article should have known that this theory isn't even cited by Hellenic scholars but by Slavs with its beginning laying in both your "scholar's" attempts to associate your peoples with the Illyrians

I don't think its important if this theory is Greek or Serbian,he is obviously speaking about the today general perception or Greeks,toward Albanians.And you(im generalizeing) are eager to accept every theory that moves out roots away from the Balkans.

According to the historic demographics of the region.. In 1918 the census conducted by the Austrian Franz Seiner, we find that Albania had a total population of 800,000 out of which according to data presented at the Paris Peace Conference the Hellenic minority was composed of some 120.000 souls. Simple math indicates that over 10% of the total population were accounted for as ethnic Hellenes..

I wouldn't count to much on the numbers presented by Greece.

George Finlay "History of the Greek Revolution" has written




Mark Mazower "After the War was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation, and State in Greece 1943-1960" p,25 sees it differently:

So what?!We were part of the ottoman empire and we were forced to furnish the ottoman army with troops.Don't try to tell me that Greeks never fought side by side with Turks,or in the ottoman army.
What about the other Albanians that fought on your side,or their nationality isn't worth to be mentioned?

So either he likes it or not, history can not be re-written.

I think he just did it.