It seems that the Greeks and the Latins we are very close to a true Ferrara-Florence

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Mygdonia

Unity!
Unity!
Unity!

We already have unity. We never lost it. The Catholics, however, have splintered into thousands of Protestant sects since their separation from the Church.

[Nikephoros]

Akritas, Paulos, you are not examining this issue as much as me. Look at my post history.

Do you want to know how that Turkish journalists page got translated: http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...-new-post.html

On some Greek-Turk forum this Turkish Kurd was posting. Every post that he made, he was attacked for his ethnicity by fanatic Turks and I helped to defend him. Finally he PMed me and offered to help translate any documents from Turkish. So I feed him that page that Tsontos provided and he translated. What he said to me in private was the exact opposite of what he said in front of the Turks, where he was forced to constantly pretend to take the Turkish nationalist positions on issues. I just share this little anecdote so you can understand a little what it means to be a minority in Turkey. To have to constantly lie and be afraid of the Turkish fanatic population. To think one thing in private and to be forced to proved your Turkishness in public. The historian Bat Ye'or coined the term dhimmitude to describe how non-muslim minorities like Christian Greeks lived under the Ottoman yoke. We could not testify in Turkish courts, we had to pay the jiyza to even have the right to exist, there was double taxation, humilatiations, etc.

Here is an example of what Armenian Americans recently did:
http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/print/?nid=23450

Patriarch Mutafyan’s speech cancelled over Armenian pressure?
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ A planned speech at a Washington university yesterday by Patriarch Mesrob II Mutafyan, religious leader of Turkish Armenians has been canceled.

Mesrob II, who arrived in the U.S. capital earlier in the week, was scheduled to deliver a speech called "The Impasse between Turks and Armenians Must Be Broken" at Georgetown’s University’s Woodstock Theological Center. But an announcement on the center’s Web site said Wednesday the speech was "postponed due to logistical conflict."

Turkish Daily News reports that “the event has been cancelled following pressure on the university by U.S. Armenian groups over Partiarch’s opposition to the Armenian Genocide Resolution.”

Asked by reporters if his speech was canceled because of U.S. Armenian pressure, the patriarch said, "it may have been."

The Armenian National Committee of America recently sent a letter to all 535 Congressional offices regarding the upcoming visit of Patriarch Mutafyan of Constantinople.

As ANCA Executive Director Aram Hamparian told a PanARMENIAN.Net reporter, the letter stresses that: "the Patriarch - like the leaders of all religious minorities in Turkey - lives in constant fear of acts of discrimination and retribution by a Turkish government that actively persecutes those who speak freely on human rights and other “sensitive” issues. As a virtual hostage, the Patriarch - whose life has been threatened on many occasions - will, as has in the past, be forced to follow the Turkish government’s line. It is truly shameful that Turkey has resorted to using coercion - cynically taking advantage of the concern of Patriach Mesrob for the safety of his flock - in a last ditch bid to block the adoption of the Armenian Genocide Resolution."

Look at what the Armenian Americans did! Turkey sent the religious leader of Turkish Armenians to help deny the Armenian genocide. What did they do, they had respect for themselves and their ancestors, their history, so they fought out against the Turkish use of this Armenian hostage for Turkey to score political points.

Look at we Greeks and what we are doing on the contrary. We are misleading and lying to our own selves. We are acting like the Ecumencial Patriarch can be a spiritual leader while being hostage to Turkish interests. In 1955 we should have learned then that the Archdiocese of the Americas can not be under the Patriarch but instead we let Turkey invade Cyprus with still the same problem existing of allowing the hostage of Turkey(the Patriarch) to limit the Greek American response to the Turkish invasion.

After Mehmed the Conqueror invaded Constantinople he created the millet system. He made the Ecumencial Patriarch very powerful and this Patriarch was even responsible for collecting taxes and for keeping the Greek flock loyal to the Sultan. This why after Greek rebellions the Patriarch was often killed. Does this mean we should feel sorry enough for our Independence as a nation from the Turks because we went against our spiritual leader, allegedly? This is why a Church of Greece was created.

What is embarrasing is to lie to yourself. The Patriarch is everything I described him to be. He cannot act out in Greek interest if he wanted to. Like the Armenians if this Ecumencial Patriarch visits the USA to make propaganda for Turkey, I hope that Greek Americans will oppose him and this situation instead of allow the Turks to degrade and humilate us as a nation with their captive hostage. But instead if I say the truth on the contrary I know many ignorant and religious Greek Americans would rather attack me and let the Ecumencial Patriarch serve Turkish interests so they can hide behind the lie that he can be a spiritual or any kind of leader to Greeks outside of Turkey.

[Paulos Melas]

Idon t give a damn about your info Nikeforos. You miss the point here.
Its not about clues but about your insulting language!!!!
Calling the ecumenical patriarch a dog is quite inappropriate Nikeforos, and you insult all the Greeks with your manners!!!
You should apologise straight away or be banned!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not for your points of view but because of your innapropriate language.

[Paulos Melas]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

Patriarch is a joke, unfortunately there are alot of willingly ignorant Greeks out there:



What is this hostage dog of the Turks, the Ecumencial Patriarch gonna do ever? The Head of the Church of Greece only should visit the Pope. In the book Greek Americans by Alice Scourby, it was also mentioned that after Turkey invaded Cyprus, Turkey used the Patriarch to make it difficult to respond amongst Greek Americans because the Archbishop of the Americas was directly under the Patriarch so they could not organize directly using that archbishop without the Turks to know.

It is a joke to expect anything from the Ecumencial Patriarch. He is a fossil, a shadow of the past, his own community is dying and he is but a passive and hapless observer, a hostage of the Turks.

I belive that all we should have a say here because the mallice of Nikeforos insults the majority of Greeks and this is a greek forum.
Should Nikeforos be banned unless he publicly apologise?
What to you think guys?

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Paulos Melas

Calling the ecumenical patriarch a dog is quite inappropriate Nikeforos, and you insult all the Greeks with your manners!!!

What is this, a theocracy? The Ecumenical Patriarch is basically a titular bishop who fancies himself as an Orthodox Pope claiming primacy over real bishops with real "flocks". Insulting him is not an insult to all Greeks. Nikephoros's precise choice of words may have been unfortunate, however he makes a legitimate point.

[Paulos Melas]

But inappropriate nonetheless.
I am not complaining about Nikeforos points of view but about his language.
I feel offended by his language and not his point!!!
It is outrageous such language.
Everybody can make whatever point he wishes thats the point of debating- free speach but always with a respective manner.
He must apologises for the use of the world dog and not for his opinion.

[Nikephoros]

This is beyond stupid. Who is bringing to this forum info from books he OCR'd himself and who is making up stupid issues like, "he insulted all Greeks because of what he said of the Ecumencial Patriarch"?

When I have time I can scan in some pages from Franz Babinger work on Mehmed the Conqueror. The first Ecumencial Patriarch the Turks appointed was a slave monk that Mehmed brought and installed as Patriarch. Whether you like it or not ever since that day the Patriarch as an instutition, its duty has been more to making Greeks accept Turkish rule than being a spiritual leader.

[Tsontos]

Nikephorus, personally I think your point is valid to an extent.

Its probably a more effectively made point without the remark which offended Paulos Melas however.

About Bartholomew, isnt it true that in recent times he's been particularly critical of the Turkish government and thats why he's come under attack from Turkish nationalist elements?

[Truth Bearer]

Why should be ban nikephoros??Because he questioned the loyalty of a Turkish citizen?

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

This is beyond stupid.

No. What is beyond stupid is your refusal to retract and apologise. You would much rather offend people than swallow your stupid pride.

I'm no fan of Patriarch Bartholomew but I also recognise the difficulty of the position he is in. You, I presume, live in a nation where you have almost complete freedom. You can post whatever you like from the comfort of your armchair with no fear of repercussions. You don't have molotov cocktails thrown in your backyard or rocks thrown through your windows on a regular basis do you.

Be a man, retract and apologise. That is something that takes guts and will earn you a lot of respect, or at least regain a little of what you have lost over your recent comments.