It seems that the Greeks and the Latins we are very close to a true Ferrara-Florence

[4runner]

Originally Posted by PhiliptheUniterchaeronea

Doesn't our Church consider the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), first amongst equals?

That was only the case while he was Orthodox. He has not been for a very long time.

[Nikephoros]

Patriarch is a joke, unfortunately there are alot of willingly ignorant Greeks out there:

Originally Posted by Speros Vryonis

"the Greek Orthodox archdiocese of North and South America was spiritually and canonically under the administrative jurisdiction of the ecumenical patriarchate, which gave the Turkish foreign ministry a weapon in its diplomatic battles with Greece. (Turkey has utilized this fact of Greek Orthodox ecclesiology with considerable success over the decades. It has often applied the same tactic in its relations with the Armenian and Jewish communities abroad and in these communities' relations with their coreligionists in Istanbul.)" ...

"The Greek foreign ministry sent its mission in Washington whatever information it had managed to gather regarding the destruction and acts of violence so that the embassy could update the archbishop, ahepa, and the public more widely.56 In his instructions to the ambassador on September 18, Stefanopoulos asked that, in agreement with Archbishop Michael, a meeting be held among the ambassador, the archbishop, Eugene Carson Blake, president of the National Council of Churches, and Bishop Merrill of the Episcopal Church in order to prepare a protest of the destruction of the churches through the National Council. Stefanopoulos told the ambassador that the patriarch was not opposed to this, as it was an ecclesiastical matter. Nevertheless, Archbishop Michael's participation did not need to be publicized."

56. Greek Embassy, Athens to Washington, No. 38683, September 10, 1955. 57 Greek Embassy, Athens to Washington, No. 39812, September 18, 1955, and No. 39813, September 18, 1955; there is no further information on Bishop Merrill in these dispatches.

Vryonis, Speros. The Mechanism of Catastrophe: The Turkish Pogrom Of September 6-7, 1955, And The Destruction Of The Greek Community Of Istanbul. Greekworks.com (New York, 2005) pp. 324-325

What is this hostage dog of the Turks, the Ecumencial Patriarch gonna do ever? The Head of the Church of Greece only should visit the Pope. In the book Greek Americans by Alice Scourby, it was also mentioned that after Turkey invaded Cyprus, Turkey used the Patriarch to make it difficult to respond amongst Greek Americans because the Archbishop of the Americas was directly under the Patriarch so they could not organize directly using that archbishop without the Turks to know.

It is a joke to expect anything from the Ecumencial Patriarch. He is a fossil, a shadow of the past, his own community is dying and he is but a passive and hapless observer, a hostage of the Turks.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

It is a joke to expect anything from the Ecumencial Patriarch. He is a fossil, a shadow of the past, his own community is dying and he is but a passive and hapless observer, a hostage of the Turks.

I dont know about anyone else but i prefer to keep our shadow of the past independent of MUssolinis church(another shadow of the past).The mafia money isnt worth it.

[Mygdonia]

Unity!
Unity!
Unity!

[Paulos Melas]

All points of view are quite interesting.
A couple of points:
a. If union is achieved the pope shall retain his absolute authority over his own church and not over the eastern churches.
b. The discussions are about a dogmatic reunion and the recreation of the East-West communion rather than a submission of the orthodox churches to the primate of Rome.
The way that the primates of the east are treated when visiting Rome indicates that and nothing more.
The Pope is by right the first bishop of christendom with the bishop of Constatinople to be second.

And Nikephoros you should be banned from the Forum for calling the ecumenical patriarch "hostage dog of the Turks".
Despite your points of view about Christianity and Orthodoxy you have no right whatsoever so badly to insult all those millions of ''ignorant'' Greeks that concider His Holiness as the Head of the Greek orthodox church who protect our ancient rights in Constatinople.
The easiest thing for the patriarchate was to leave Turkey and be relocated in Athos were the patriarch would be treated as a head of state and receive the reverance of the greeks.
He would have a huge palace and total freedom.
Instead he is remaining in Constatinople with great dangers even for his life.
If you call this man a dog you insult me and million other Greeks and you should be banned for this at once.

[Nikephoros]

Paulos Melas, you can continue to roast in your ignorance. The Patriarch is a hostage of the Turks. When Turkey did the 1955 pogrom and when it invaded Cyprus the Greek government and Greek Americans could not use the Archibishop of the Americas directly to organize a grass roots response to the Turkish actions because the Ecumencial Patriarch would find out and thus Turkey would discover the Greek American efforts.

So I feel very comfortable saying he is a hostage of the Turks. The Armenian Patriarchs in Turkey, they are denying the Armenian genocide. When there is a Armenian genocide bill in US Congress, Turkey uses the Head Rabbi to get Jewish American groups to deny the Armenian genocide. All non-muslim minorities in Turkey are hostages of Turkey. The only reason you do not know this is because you choose to remain ignorant.

We need to be realistic and realize that the Ecumencial Patriarch issue needs to be used to create a bad image for Turkey, but that the Church of Greece only can act in the interests of Greeks not the Patriarch.

[Paulos Melas]

I never disagreed about the "hostage of the turks" part but about "hostage dog of the turks"
That was the insulting part.
You language is outrageous here insulting millions of Greeks by calling the patriarch a dog!!!!
Thats the issue here calling the patriarch a dog a very severe insult for which you must be banned!

[Nikephoros]

What you are saying is a severe insult and you should be ashamed.

Just look at your posting history versus mine and see who provides more useful info.

[Paulos Melas]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

Patriarch is a joke, unfortunately there are alot of willingly ignorant Greeks out there:



What is this hostage dog of the Turks, the Ecumencial Patriarch gonna do ever? .

I never disagreed Nikeforos that the patriarch is a hostage in Constatinople.
But I m strongly insulted along with millions of Greeks by your malice and bad manners to call the patriarch a dog????????????
If you concider brave men who survive under such difficulties conditions dogs, and you insult millions of Greeks with your rude language by calling this great spiritual leader a dog so shamelessly, then what are your values and your manners -if you have any?

[akritas]

Nikephoros please recant or delete your quote that insult the Holly Patriarch. Personally I have visit Constantinople many times as and Phanari and I realized what is the meaning to be in an real jail because your religion and nationality.