Identity and Origins of Vlachs (split thread)

[kaospilot]

Why do you people tend to always ignore a nation or try to mislead with fictional terms such as "hellenic vlachs" , "Hellenic (although Vlach speaking)",
"The 3 main groups in Krushevo were Greek, Albanian and Bulgarian", "Greek VLAH", "Vlachs were Hellenes", etc..

JESUS! VLACHS ARE VLACHS! The vlach language is a latinic language similar to romanian or italian. I AM A VLACH! We call ourselves ARMANI (derived from ROMANS). We are not greeks, nor albanians, nor romanians. There was a Roman Empire folks! Before the Byzantium Latin was the official language of the empire! We are most probably followers to latinized indigenous inhabitants of the central balkans (thracian - most probably, ilyrians or even greeks perhaps). The vlach language has also an important amount of thracian words that you can find only in albanian (ilyrian) or in romanian (latinized dacians <thracians from north of the Danube>).

For more info check the web: vlahoi.gr or other various sites.

I'm astonished of how some people try to consider my nation as belonging to their nation while they have never heard the vlach language and most certainly they will not understand a bit of it (greeks or slavs).

Traitor vlachs for the idea of hellenism? Well pardon me! Greeks are totally indebted to Vachs for the creation of the modern state of Greece. And what's the greek opinion on vlachs? "well greek people whom by mistake speak a strange latinic language. Foget yourlanguage and come back 2000 years ago when you were greeks!" Are you sure we were Greeks? Are you sure ancient Macedonians were greeks? You transform so easily an ethnic group into a greek one so that considering ancient macedonian as Greeks no one will stand a chance against you.

I'll give you an example of manipulation, assimilation and misleading.

Sotirio Bulgari!the founder of the BVLGARI trademark. Everyone says he was a greek from Epirous from Kalarites! Kalarites is in fact Kalarli (which has a meaning - The Riders) and it was and it is a Vlach village in Epirous. He was a vlach and migrated to Italyalongside a friend of his Takis Kremos another vlach from the village of Nevesto - in fact Niveasta (The Bride). Why did the greeks hellenized the latinic names of all the vlach villages huh?

Just take this into consideration when you fight eachother greeks or slavs or albanians.
Tks

[Tsontos]

The Vlach foundation from that site you mentioned, vlahoi.gr, calls itself a "panhellenic" association of Vlachs. Are you sure Greeks are imposing something on you? Do you live in Greece?

Greeks are totally indebted to Vachs for the creation of the modern state of Greece. And what's the greek opinion on vlachs?

You act like Greeks simply dont know that people like Feraios and the long list of other Vlachs were in fact Vlachs.

We are most probably followers to latinized indigenous inhabitants of the central balkans (thracian - most probably, ilyrians or even greeks perhaps).

Yep, most Greeks wont disagree with you there. Does that mean we should simply culturally disown the Vlachs who died for Greece like Feraios etc. and delete them from our ethnic Greek history??

Are you sure ancient Macedonians were greeks?

Yes, yes I am.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Why do you people tend to always ignore a nation or try to mislead with fictional terms such as "hellenic vlachs" , "Hellenic (although Vlach speaking)",

Actually a nation is a people associated to a specific territory under a central government and doesn't have to be composed of a homogenous population (ethnically speaking).
But whats all this about misleading?
Since you are a Vlach (your writing reminds me of a specific individual from Aspropotamos) then you should have known that one of the major theories on the origin of the Vlachs of Hellas is that they are nothing more than a Hellenic people that were Latinized. The very existance of this well known theory, which isn't strictly promoted by Hellenic circles should have made you want to contribute to the discussion instead of critisize especially in such a rediculous manner.

The vlach language has also an important amount of thracian words that you can find only in albanian (ilyrian) or in romanian (latinized dacians <thracians from north of the Danube>).

This is interesting, especially since the Albanians themselves have a huge problem proving relations to the Illyrian language.. seems like you've found the missing link liguists haven't been able to find.

Traitor vlachs for the idea of hellenism?

Traitors?
Are you for real?
Seems like its only you and my buddy from Aspropotamos that believes this and tries to apply this stupidity upon others. There is no self-respecting Hellene with basic knowledge of his history that would not acknowledge the contribution of the Hellenic Vlachs.. and as much as the term may annoy you, THAT my friend is exactly how Kolettis, Ferraios, Averof...etc identified themselves, as they very well proved by literally contributing their lives to the ideal of Hellenism and Hellas.

I'll give you an example of manipulation, assimilation and misleading.

Kalarites is in fact Kalarli (which has a meaning - The Riders)

Your example is indeed a fine example of manipulation and misleading, if not intentional manipulation with clear intent to deceit, then it must be due to total ignorance.

kalarrutes (καλαρρυτες) my dear friend has nothing to do with "riders" nor with any other rediculous etymology you may come up with.

"kalarrutes" derives directly from the Homeric (Iliad 21.259) "kelarizw" = "the murmur of running water", hence why Hesychius noted the related terms "kelarrunes" (kappa 413) = "sewer" and "kelarrugai" (kappa 414) = dike/moat.

So its obvious that the name in question was given to the village simply because its situated right above the omonymous waterfall, "Kalarrutis"

Why did the greeks hellenized the latinic names of all the vlach villages huh?

Really?.. whats Tzoumerka, Metsobo, Surrako..etc not that name changes didn't happen but "all" is a huge exaggeration?

[Demetrius Doukas]

Is not the Vlach language Rumanian?

[kaospilot]

The Vlach foundation from that site you mentioned, vlahoi.gr, calls itself a "panhellenic" association of Vlachs.

True. Sad but true. There are some historical reasons.

greekdancing.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4932&sid=3d70ea316e006fd6f8529a698 f687d75

*fill in front www

I'm trying to be objectiv as much as i can in this matter. My concern is in ethnic and language preservation. Not in any other crap.

Quote:
We are most probably followers to latinized indigenous inhabitants of the central balkans (thracian - most probably, ilyrians or even greeks perhaps).

Yep, most Greeks wont disagree with you there. Does that mean we should simply culturally disown the Vlachs who died for Greece like Feraios etc. and delete them from our ethnic Greek history??

Who said this? My post below was towards a guy who was calling a Vlach traitor to hellenic ideals (Pitu Guli from Krusevo). It is our right as Vlachs to have even our own ideals and not only to lend someone else's ideals.
Vlachs have given great figures not only to Greece but also to Romania, Serbia, Albania, Hungary and even to the Ottoamn and the Habsburg Empires.
They shouls be part of their history just as they're part of Vlach history.

Quote:
Are you sure ancient Macedonians were greeks?

Yes, yes I am.

Maybe you're right. Who knows? My un-professional opinion is they were a mixture of populations with a predominent thracian ratio. But maybe they were Hellenic Thracian just as in Hellenic Vlachs.

[Tsontos]

I dont understand. You say that we should not say that Vlachs are Greeks, but in my opinion that is an insult to Greek heroes of Vlach origins!

JESUS! VLACHS ARE VLACHS! The vlach language is a latinic language similar to romanian or italian. I AM A VLACH! We call ourselves ARMANI (derived from ROMANS). We are not greeks, nor albanians, nor romanians. There was a Roman Empire folks! Before the Byzantium Latin was the official language of the empire!

Are you sure words like Aroumanian are derived directly from the word "Roman" which indicates your direct descent from ancient Romans (as in Latin)? Remember that the Byzantine Empire also called itself "Romania" or the "Roman" Empire and that Bulgaria, Romania were all known as Rumelia under the Turks as well!

Isnt it true that Romanians were originally calling themselves Roumanians but changed it later to Romanian in the 19th century?

[kaospilot]

Actually a nation is a people associated to a specific territory under a central government and doesn't have to be composed of a homogenous population (ethnically speaking).

Actually.. check the wikipedia and argue with them not with me!


<A nation is a form of cultural or social community.>
<A nation is not a state, and while traditionally monocultural, it may also be multicultural in its self-definition. >
<The term nation is often used as a synonym for ethnic group (sometimes "ethnos"), but although ethnicity is now one of the most important aspects of cultural or social identity, people with the same ethnic origin may live in different nation-states and be treated as members of separate nations for that reason.>

then you should have known that one of the major theories on the origin of the Vlachs of Hellas is that they are nothing more than a Hellenic people that were Latinized.

I know probably all the theories the most important being:

- latinized indigenous people (hence thracian, greeks or thracian and greeks);
- colonized roman soldiers;
- migration from north of the Danube.

The first hypothesis seems to be the most accurate but then again.. who knows? Maybe Vlachs are the Pelasgoi!

Quote:
The vlach language has also an important amount of thracian words that you can find only in albanian (ilyrian) or in romanian (latinized dacians <thracians from north of the Danube>).

This is interesting, especially since the Albanians themselves have a huge problem proving relations to the Illyrian language.. seems like you've found the missing link liguists haven't been able to find.

I'll make it for you even more interesting:

Just a few of words that are the same in Vlach, Albanian , Romanian (all thracian ilyrian of origin and non exisistent in the other balkanic languages):

buza (lip), metura (broom), scrum (ashes), vatra (hearth), mandzu (foal), caciula (fur cap), balta (swamp), brad (fir), tzap (goat), sterpu (steril), samburi (kernel),etc.

If you're not satisified I can supply you more.

Quote:
Why did the greeks hellenized the latinic names of all the vlach villages huh?

Really?.. whats Tzoumerka, Metsobo, Surrako..etc not that name changes didn't happen but "all" is a huge exaggeration?

My mistake. Some toponimes are still the latinic ones: Livadi (orchard/meadow), Fourka (the distaff), Samarina (Saint Mary);
Milia is in fact Ameru in vlach;

Metsovo? is Aminciu!
Surrako? is Siraku (The Poor)!
Vouvousa? is Baiasa!

Tzoumerka (Giumerka); Tziourdzea (Giurgea) are vlach villages indead.

..and many more.

On issues related to vlach word you should ask somenone who knows vlach and verifiy.


So.. I've been asked aslo if greeks are imposing something on Vlachs!?

what do you think about this?

florina.org/html/2001/2001_bletsas_transcript.html

*place www in front please.

Later for now.

[Tsontos]

that same site (florina.org) will have you beleive there are 500,000 "ethnic macedonians" in Greece.

If you think its "unfortunate" that the Vlachs have a "Panhellenic foundation" thats your problem, not theirs.

[kaospilot]

I gave you that site randomly choosing.. I've searched on google for Sotiri Bleatsa because of his situation. That issue must be a concern.

//cm.greekhelsinki.gr/

the human rights web page.

And look. I really dont want to fight anyone. It's really a valch problem and eventually it will clearify. I hope it will not be to late.. but we will prevail

[Tsontos]

Greekhelsinki is run by florina.org

but we will prevail

Go to Greece and the Pindus mountains, go around telling them that they "will prevail" and they will laugh very hard at you