The Elgin Parthenon Marbles

[Alita]

Great. I love the head to body distance one.

[ViceAndVertigo]

I think the Elgin Marbles should stay at the British Museum. As one of the leading Museum's in the world and in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, the Marbles showcase the outstanding achievements that the Ancient Greeks made. If the Museum gave back these pieces, it would create a high-profile precedent where most of the Museum's collection would be subject to calls for the return to their country of origin. After all, the National Archaeological Museum of Athens itself has antiquities from Egypt and the Near East, would Greece accept calls from the Egyptian Government for the return of these artefacts?

It is an excellent experience to be able to look at the Marbles, go on to view the Rosetta Stone, then finish off by taking in the Terracotta Army, all within the space of a few minutes. The British Museum truly lets you appreciate all the world's great civilisations in a global context.

I do sympathise with the Greek demands for the return of one of the world's most remarkable artefacts to the place where they were created. However, the British Museum is the best place for them to be viewed. On the positive side, at least Lord Elgin did not take the entire Parthenon Temple with him back to London, now that really would have been controversial.

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by ViceAndVertigo

I think the Elgin Marbles should stay at the British Museum. As one of the leading Museum's in the world and in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, the Marbles showcase the outstanding achievements that the Ancient Greeks made.

I dont see your point here about exposure. The Acropolis and its nearby Museum is one of the most visited places on earth.

The British Museum truly lets you appreciate all the world's great civilisations in a global context.

In Athens you can view these articles in the shadow of the towering Acropolis, the pinnacle of Western civillisation; hows that for context?

If the Museum gave back these pieces, it would create a high-profile precedent where most of the Museum's collection would be subject to calls for the return to their country of origin.

A precedent has already been set for the British Museum returning of articles (See in this thread about the Australian Aboriginal case)

After all, the National Archaeological Museum of Athens itself has antiquities from Egypt and the Near East, would Greece accept calls from the Egyptian Government for the return of these artefacts?

Yes.

I do sympathise with the Greek demands for the return of one of the world's most remarkable artefacts to the place where they were created. However, the British Museum is the best place for them to be viewed. On the positive side, at least Lord Elgin did not take the entire Parthenon Temple with him back to London, now that really would have been controversial.

Yeah if it wasnt controversial enough that "his lordship" obtained fraudulent permission from the Turkish occupiers to scrape marbles from this building and then have many of them lost at see when one of his ships sunk


The English and the "British" Museum's position on this issue is untenable and wrong.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by ViceAndVertigo

I think the Elgin Marbles should stay at the British Museum. As one of the leading Museum's in the world and in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, the Marbles showcase the outstanding achievements that the Ancient Greeks made. If the Museum gave back these pieces, it would create a high-profile precedent where most of the Museum's collection would be subject to calls for the return to their country of origin. After all, the National Archaeological Museum of Athens itself has antiquities from Egypt and the Near East, would Greece accept calls from the Egyptian Government for the return of these artefacts?

It is an excellent experience to be able to look at the Marbles, go on to view the Rosetta Stone, then finish off by taking in the Terracotta Army, all within the space of a few minutes. The British Museum truly lets you appreciate all the world's great civilisations in a global context.

I do sympathise with the Greek demands for the return of one of the world's most remarkable artefacts to the place where they were created. However, the British Museum is the best place for them to be viewed. On the positive side, at least Lord Elgin did not take the entire Parthenon Temple with him back to London, now that really would have been controversial.

The president it will set if the Marbles are returned, is not to take objects illegally or controversial objects maliciously lest you lose them to their rightful owners further down the line. Elgin did not take these stones for Britain, education, spirituality - he took them to put in his private garden in Scotland but then went bust and was forced to sell them to the British museum. Greece's museums on the the other hand will not have to return anything because Greece never took anything like this is a similar manner.

If they are returned, as a lot of looted art / dubious morality removed art is (see Getty musems and Mrs True) already being returned to Greece/ Italy it will set a president and educate. The president will be don't take controversial art off a Turkish Invasion force that belongs to someone else. Be careful what you buy. And most importantly? It will teach the world that museums like the British museum, called an institution (lol) are simply mass collections (made in times of empire) of other people's national art who were either too poor, too damaged as a nation to defend them properly at the time. The British museum offered us casts, lol. When we get them back, they can have our casts.

[Paulos Melas]

The marbles is part of the central national monument of Greece. They are not simply antiquities. Eventually they shall be returned to Greece now that the new acropolis museum is in place

[pankration]

When my son and I were in the Greek Archeological Museum, in a moment of fun we went to pose in front of one of the statues (the spear throwing Poseidon). Immediately we were accosted by polite but firm security who told us that these objects were as holy relics to the Greeks and they would not tolerate any disrespect. We agreed. This is the difference. To us, these are holy relics...our connection to the past.

[Tsontos]

Theres even a facebook group for this issue: Facebook | Login

For more information see:
Elgin Marbles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Opinion poll: Majority of Britons favor return of Parthenon Marbles
Elginism » Restitution of the Elgin Marbles (Parthenon Marbles) to Athens, Greece
The Parthenon Marbles (or Elgin Marbles) Restoration to Athens, Greece - Welcome to the BCRPM
Melina's speech to the Oxford Union -
The Acropolis of Athens, Attiki (Hellas - GR)

Melina Merkouri's famous speech
UNESCO resolutions on the promotion and protection of cultural heritage:
Culture: UNESCO

The official stance of the Greek government for the return of the Marbles:
Õðïõñãåßï Ðïëéôéóìïý - Ç åðéóôñïöÞ ôùí ÌáñìÜñùí ôïõ Ðáñèåíþíá (in Greek)

Students in Greece protested (again) for the restoration of the Parthenon Marbles to their home: Greece
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Greek pupils demand Elgin Marbles

Perhaps the beginning to the restoration of many articles belonging in Greek museums?
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Ancient wreath returns to Greece


Sign the petition!
The Parthenon Marbles (or Elgin Marbles) Restoration to Athens, Greece - Sign the Online Petition

[Promethean Fire]

Looks like there coming home!


The Parthenon Marbles: Spoils of an Empire


The Parthenon Marbles: Imperial Spoils or Grecian Glories? What are the Parthenon Marbles? And why should we care where they are, let alone demand that they be returned to Greece? To answer these questions we need to go back in history. The Parthenon was built on the Athenian Acropolis in the Fifth Century BC as an enduring testament to Athens’ victory over the Persians and to the grandeur of that city. And we are all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Parthenon’s sculptures and great debate: Greece wants their Marbles back!
The history of their removal in a nutshell goes like this. In 1801 whilst Greece was under the yolk of the Ottoman oppression, the British Ambassador to Constantinople, Lord Elgin, got permission from the local Turkish authorities in the form of a firman to take moulds of the sculptures on the Parthenon as well as measurements. By a combination of bribery and good luck, Elgin’s men took advantage of the lax local officials and began stripping more than one hundred sculptures and significant fragments from the Parthenon for shipment back to Britain. Elgin then sold the sculptures to the British Government due to financial difficulties in 1816 and the Marbles became an exhibit at the British Museum. The British government not only gained title of the Parthenon sculptures, but in renaming the Parthenon sculptures 'the Elgin Collection' by an act of Parliament, it also distinctly erased their Greek origin. According to their former curator, Ian Jenkins, the acquisition of the Elgin marbles was “arguably the single most important event in the history of the British Museum”. Jenkins has written on numerous occasions of the marbles rites of passage and their transformation from architectural ornament into museum art object.
The British Museum has steadfastly refused all requests for the return of the sculptures and has cleverly tried to reinvent itself as a universal museum, representing the collective memory of mankind. However, there is now a significant new factor in the debate and after many years of discussion and planning, the Greeks have finally built a magnificent new museum at the foot of the Sacred Rock. The New Acropolis Museum is potentially the British Museum’s worst nightmare. The intention is that all the known surviving sculptures in Athens and London together with several smaller pieces in the Vatican, the Louvre and several other museums throughout Europe, will eventually be reunited and placed on display in the new museum within site of the Parthenon and in context.
The campaign for return is a worldwide phenomenon. With various committees including The Australians for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles campaigning for their return, various petitions claiming rightful ownership and even a Facebook group with over 11,000 members, when will these incredible sculptures return to their birthplace? In October 2007 Sydney University hosted a Parthenon Day series of talks and an exhibition of the new museum. The Parthenon Forum held at the Seymour Centre featured a number of leading speakers from Greece, including Professor Dimitrios Pandermalis, the President of the Organisation for the Construction of the New Acropolis Museum, and Maria Ioannidou, Director of the Acropolis Restoration Service, and Nikolaos Toganidis, the architect responsible for the Parthenon Restoration Project, who set out progress in the construction of the new museum and also in the nature and extent of the Acropolis restoration works that have been ongoing since 1975.
More recently, on 18 February 2008 the Cambridge University Union held a debate to argue the motion that the Parthenon Sculptures be returned to the New Acropolis Museum. The speakers for the motion were David Hill, a member of Australians for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles and the Chairman of the International Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures, and Professor Anthony Snodgrass of the British Committee and an eminent classicist. The debate was nearly called off because it was difficult to find a speaker opposing the motion. The British Museum (despite its claims to being a universal museum) refused to provide any speakers and finally the art critic of the Guardian newspaper, Jonathon Jones, fronted up to debate the motion. The debate was won 114-46. Cultural treasures are a part of our dreaming and memory and spiritual landscape. The Parthenon Sculptures must be reunited to ensure that history and memory are simply not sacrificed for imperial grandeur and also to ensure their cultural integrity is restored within their rightful resting place.
Contributed by Eleni Vardas

[nsminc]

PF I wouldn't count on it any time soon.

[zefs]

Last Parthenon marbles threatened by pollution: archaeologist
6 hours ago

ATHENS (AFP) — A senior Greek archaeologist warned this week that the last original sculptures still adorning the Parthenon, Athens' iconic ancient temple, face a major pollution threat and must be removed to a museum.

"There are still 17 original metopes (sculpted plaques) which must be protected because they can no longer endure atmospheric conditions," Acropolis site supervisor Alexandros Mantis told AFP on Friday.

Mantis has proposed that the endangered sculptures be replaced by replicas and kept safe in a new museum located below the Acropolis that is scheduled to open in September.

He singled out 14 plaques on the Parthenon's western facade which are in a "pitiful" condition, plus two more on the northern side.

One of them is the so-called "Annunciation" plaque featuring two goddesses, which was spared by early Christians when the temple was turned into a church around 600 AD.

Athens' most recogniseable landmark and part of the ancient Acropolis citadel overlooking the city, the Parthenon dates back to the golden age of Athenian democracy which began in the fifth century B.C.

Few sculptures dating from the Acropolis' creation are still on-site, having been gradually removed by Greek archaeologists in the last 30 years during restoration works.

The famous Caryatids, statues of young women that acted as pillars to the Erechtheion temple, were themselves removed in 1979.

The issue was discussed last week by the Greek archaeological council (KAS), the influential 34-member state body that advises the culture ministry on heritage issues.

But the council is frequently split and this case was no exception.

"Mr Mantis has stated his position but the archaeological council has not ruled on the issue," said Maria Ioannidou, the archaeologist heading the Acropolis restoration project (YSMA).

"A relevant study must be carried out and an international conference must be held on the issue to reach a decision," she told AFP.

The culture ministry's head of ancient monument restoration, Dimosthenis Giraud, also advised caution.

"A detailed study of the issue is necessary," he said.

Sceptics say that removing the Parthenon's last original sculptures would strike a jarring note with hundreds of thousands of tourists who visit the monument every year.

There is also debate over how the move will affect Greece's case with the British Museum for the return of the Parthenon Marbles, the priceless friezes removed in the early 19th century by Lord Elgin, British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire which ruled Greece at the time.

The British have long accused Greek authorities of taking poor care of the vulnerable monument that was exposed to decades of air pollution.

Mantis insists that protecting the sculptures will strengthen Greece's case to have the Parthenon Marbles repatriated from London.

"We must protect our heritage at all costs," he said.

A total of 92 metopes once adorned the Parthenon's outer Doric frieze, the oldest sculptures on the temple dedicated to Athens' patron goddess Athena.

Depicting scenes of battle between gods and giants, men facing centaurs and Amazons, and the Trojan War, most of them are now nearly unrecognisable.

In addition to the changes wrought on the temple when it was turned into a church, it was badly damaged during a Venetian siege in 1687 when a cannon ball exploded in the Turkish powder magazine stored inside the Parthenon.