Geodetic Triangulation

[Euklid]

Guys, the archeological keys are here in the Lakonian Gulf. We have pyramids here right next to your village Lakonian, and not only one but several. Also the amount of porhyra found in Elafonisos is enormous. That island the Pavlopetri whcih is in between themainland and Elafonisos is a whole city that expands miles away under water and on the surface of the beaches. There are also the walls from Pavlopetri to Neapolis which extend underwater for about 2 miles and are perfectly preserved. We need archeologists, asap.

Anyways, Lakonian, your only mistake is that you rush to credit the Greeks with speculations, do not rush mate, the truth is here, we shall find it, it wil come about by itself, we do not need to claim anything about the Egyptians, our civilization predates them, Linear A, and Minoan Hieroglyphs predate the Egyptians, we only need to gather as much proof as possible so that the rotten consensus shuts the fuck up, we do not need to start the overtones, and rush to make conclusions, they will make the conclusions themselves.

[Lakonian]

I know Euklid,

what people need to remember others had Pyramids aswell that predate thos of Egypt, what about China? Mexico?

To be exact Euklid there are 16 small stone pyramids in Greece and mentionable because they were built about a century before the first Egyptian pyramid. Thermo readinsg proove this as per my previous post

While much smaller, about the size of a house, archaeologists have determined the Hellenikon pyramid in Greece predates the Djoser pyramid (the oldest Egyptian pyramid) by about 100 years. Can we not from this at least assume the Egyptians got the idea of pyramid-building from the Greeks? There are claims of another, perhaps older, Greek pyramid... a so-called a ‘sculptured pyramid’ is said to exist at Taygetus mountain. It remains scientifically unknown whether it is manmade or a natural formation however.

It is believed these small Greek pyramids served either as memorials or observation-communication towers but only a few have been studied. Even though they are much smaller, the Greek pyramids seemed to have served a practical purpose whereas the larger Egyptian and Chinese ones didn’t. The building of a monstrous structure for burial purposes doesn't seem a practical undertaking. Those in Mexico, on the other hand, seemed to be both practical and impractical.

This backs that we always had purpose. What do you think guys?

[Euklid]

And something else, the Hellenikon village aka Kouletia used to be the Lakonian prison cells of the Ottomans, that is where the Kontakos family(ours) were kept prisoners for ages(until the liberation). Ive been inside the prison cells in Hellenikon which is a few miles away from Daimonia, Elika, and Pantanassa on the way to Monemvasia, and its also where my grandfather was born(his house there; is a prison cell) and then he came down to Elafonisos when his father(a blacksmith; ex-prisoner from Koita) died at the age of 26(unknown reasons).

[Lakonian]

Thats amazing man. To think that we are connected like this. Our grandfathers. My papou fought also in the Italian/Civil war. He first fought along side the communists when the Nazis had actualy come into into teh village, you probaly have noticed the burnt houses, they are still standing i hope? Then he switched and fouht along sie the fascits when he saw what the communists where doing. What a mess re. Nothing to be proud of.

Anyways back to the subject.,.......

[Lakonian]

Euklid your my cousin, but i dont see how you think im speculating? Im presenting a hypothesis. Your a man that defends the Hellenic words, do you know hypothesis?

I know i carrie may pride on my sleeve, but it just doesnt mathematicaly sum up when we look a this as being a creation of what we only knew how to do.

Besides, has there ever been evidence as to why/how they built these Pyramids and who??? It makes we wonder when they say slave power was used to build them. Guys slaves could not have built these monuments without soem sort of high skill. Its not like they could scrap a section and rebuild those days.

Search the method that was used and you will see hundreds of methods, but they are all inconclusive! Its hypothesis.

Euklid if you believe Greeks had a hand in this whats your arguement my friend?

[Lakonian]

Another thing, an important word which would fit my "speculations" is Conservatism. the degree of "fit" with existing recognised knowledge-systems.

In other words systems that only Greeks had as far as evidence goes.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Euklid

And something else, the Hellenikon village aka Kouletia used to be the Lakonian prison cells of the Ottomans, that is where the Kontakos family(ours) were kept prisoners for ages(until the liberation). Ive been inside the prison cells in Hellenikon which is a few miles away from Daimonia, Elika, and Pantanassa on the way to Monemvasia, and its also where my grandfather was born(his house there; is a prison cell) and then he came down to Elafonisos when his father(a blacksmith; ex-prisoner from Koita) died at the age of 26(unknown reasons).

Euklid, you must be talking about a different Ellhniko, cause the pyramid of Ellhniko is on the road from Argos to Epidauros. I visited it, Mukhnes, Tiruntha...etc a couple of years ago when I was staying in Kantia just outside Nauplio.

[Euklid]

Probably, there are various Pyramids, in this area as well(which is only a few km southern of the ones you are talking about following the coast) most of them i've seen them. In the area from Epidavros Limira, the coast of Monemvasia, Helliniko, Elika, Pantanassa, Elafonisos, Kastania, in other words from the coast of Monemvasia, till the Laconic Gulf, is full of Pyramids. Come down here and ill show you, the most interesting thing by far in the wider area, are the tombs in the pavlopetri rock, the porphyra and the well preserved, cart-roads, and walls inside the sea, snorkeling here is accompanied with archeological discoveries. Right in my house/hotel, there are various left-overs of what used to be Minoan-Mycenean huge city that axtends for many many miles, underneath the water, and on the beach, and on various location either on the island or underneath the island. After all this Island became an Island when Minoic Crete was destroyed by the Tsunami, earthquake, or whatever.


Lakonian see PM.

[akritas_gs]

1.The pyramids in the Peloponnesus

A. Introduction

The three pyramids located in the Peloponnesus have recently been the center of a great deal of attention.This sudden interest is being shown not only by archaeologists and historians, but by the general public as well, both Greek and foreign. This is entirely justified because they concern the distant past of humanity as a whole. The astonishment one naturally experiences when seeing the pyramids of Egypt for the first time, is akin to the reaction of those who are told that their prototypes are most likely to be found in an obscure village near Argos in the Peloponnesus. This assertion -- which contradicts the misguided belief held by many that civilization proceeded from the East -- is bolstered by the concurrence that exists between the chronological assessment of these pyramids made by the prestigious Athens
Academy, the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and the historical information available to us from ancient sources: All of which have to do with when these structures were constructed, whether this architectural know-how was transferred to Egypt from Greece, and, if so, how. The recent spate of articles, monographs, and studies concerning these pyramids -- and most especially the publication of the Athens Academy findings -- has caused the aforementioned proponents of the ex anatolis brigade to beat a hasty retreat. What can be relied upon, however, is that, once the current flurry of interest dies down, they will no doubt be back in full force, beating the drums for their unsubstantiated theory of a life-span of only two millenniums for Hellenic civilization, and purposely misconstruing evidence that would be convincing to any unbiased and reasonably intelligent individual. Proof that there is something icthyological afoot can be had by simply considering the directive issued by the Ministry of Culture a few years ago forbidding all public-sector archaeologists from having anything to do with the chronological dating of any structures in Greece thought to be older than 2000 years B.C.


B. The Official Chronological Assessment


On 9 February 1995, Pericles Theoharis, the then General Secretary of the Athens Academy, announced the results of a two year study of these pyramids. The five-member team chosen to do the work was comprised of the lead scientist, Dimitris Koulaksithes, as project manager; the renowned archaeologist Adamantios Sampson, whose specialty is prehistoric archaeology; Yiannis Liritzis, professor of physics and applied mathematics, and an acknowledged expert in the chronological assessment of stone
formations; Evangelos Lagios, the head of the Department of Geophysics at Athens University; and his wife, Mrs Lagiou, a scholar whose role was to create a bibliography of anything having to do with pyramids from the ancient sources, and to keep the records of the project. The three structures chosen to be dated were two of the three known pyramids in the Peloponnesus: that is, the pyramid located approximately four kilometers from Argos, in the village of Helleniko (pictured above); the pyramid located outside of the village of Ligouria, near Epidauros; and the well-known "block house" of Mycenae
-- to be used for comparison dating, as this structure's age is universally agreed upon by the scientific community. (The third pyramid, in Dalamanara -- located roughly half-way between the other two, and in the worst condition of the three -- was not tested). The method of chronologically assessing these structures was the "optical thermo-photo illumination" (optikis thermofotauyeias) method. The actual dating measurements were performed at the Nuclear Chronological Assessment Laboratory at the School
of Physics of the University of Edinburgh, in Scotland, and at the Archaeometrics Laboratory of the Demokritos National Science Research Center, in Greece. The Helleniko pyramid was dated to 2720 B.C., with a margin of error factor of plus or minus 580 years.
The Ligouria pyramid was dated to 2100 B.C., with a margin of error factor of plus or minus 600 years.
These results show that the Helleniko pyramid is arguably 100 years older than the Egyptian steppyramid of Zoser (dated to 2620 B.C.), and 170 years older than the pyramid of Cheops (dated to 2550 B. C.). Obviously annoyed that such a possibility exists, the ex anatolis brigade emerged immediately after the announcement, and began to dispute the reliability of the "optical thermo-photo illumination" method, claiming that this method is effective only for measuring ceramics and not on the kind of processed stone used for the construction of these pyramids. The General Secretary of the Athens Academy, Pericles Theoharis -- who also happens to be a professor of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics -- disagreed. He wrote that "... this method has been successfully applied on geological substances such as lava, stalagmites, meteorites, cave deposits, and aeolic and oceanic residues" as well. Additionally, before this method was applied to the Pyramids, it was tested on the "block house" of Mycenae -- which had already often been dated using other methods -- and the chronological assessment
results for the pyramids coincided. More than that, the samples taken from the pyramids were numerous,and were taken from different parts of the structures; they were then sent along to the laboratories,together with samples from the "block house." Although these samples were marked and separated, they were not identified, so that the scientists at the labs did not know which were which. There is therefore no way, other than from ill-will and bad intentions, for the findings to be credibly disputed.



C. Historical Information

Historical information based on Apollodorus, Pausanias, and Diodorus Siculus tends to make the date of the highest error factor of the Hellenikon pyramid the most likely; that is 2720 +580 = 3300 B.C. Mr. K. Koutrouvelis, in his speech at the International Conference on Greek Pre-History in Olsted, Germany (9 to 11 December 1994), presented his chronological determination of the Trojan War. He based his theory on Homer's description in the Iliad (xviii. 483-489), wherein the poet describes the position at the time of specific star formations. According to Mr. Koutrouvelis, this gives him, and any astronomer, the information necessary to determine the date of the Trojan War, which he concluded took place circa 3078 to 3087 B.C. This time period coincides with other information from Homer, as well as with the observations of the astronomer Hipparchus (circa 130 B.C.), who mentions the same phenomena. Apollodorus (II.iii.1.),writes that "Bellerophon, the son of Glaucus (who belongs to the 6th generation from the "flood of Deucalion" {I.vii.4.}), went to Proetus, in Tiryns [in the Argive plain] to be purified. From Diomedes, who fought at Troy, and who was of the 12th generation from Deucalion (Apollodorus I. viii.4), to the 6th generation of Bellerophon, there was a span of 7 generations, or approximately 230 years (at 35 years per generation). Given that the Trojan war occurred circa 3087 B.C., we can conclude that Bellerophon was born circa 3317 B.C., and that Proetus, who purified him, must have been born one generation earlier, that is, circa 3352 B.C. (see also The Prehistoric Cosmology of the Greeks, by K. Koutrouvelis, 1993). What ties all of this together is that Pausanias says that the pyramid of Argos was built during the time of Proetus, the king of Argos, and his twin brother, Acrisius, (with whom he contended for the throne). Hence its construction took place around 3300 B.C.. This because Perseus, was the grandson of Acrisius, who must therefore have been born about 70 years after his grandfather, that is circa 3285 B.C., and according to Pausanias ( II.xvi.3), Perseus was the founder of Mycenae. And since contemporary archeological science agrees that "... the first habitation of Mycenae, based on the excavations, is placed at the third millennium B.C., [and] possibly even earlier" (J. Caskey, "The Early Helladic Period in the Argolid." Hesperia. No. 29. pp 285-303. 1960), the construction of the Helleniko pyramid can thus be placed at the end of the fourth millennium B.C.



D. Greek Presence in Egypt

There is a misconception that, for the ancient Greeks, Egypt was a distant, remote, and unfamiliar country. However, all of the information we have from ancient authors gives us the exact opposite picture, which is that Egypt from the most ancient times was open, known, and familiar to the Greeks. And, as in Greece, the gods of the Greeks ruled, got married, and quarrelled. As a matter of fact, the first mortal king of Egypt was Minas (or Minos) who, first, according to Diodorus Siculus (I. 89. 3), near lake Moiris (of Egypt), "... having constructed his tomb, placed a quadrangular pyramid on it and constructed the much-admired labyrinth." Hence, from this particular Minos (the generic name for all Cretan kings of that period), both the pyramid and the labyrinth -- a particular element of Minoan civilization -- go to
Egypt. Even Perseus, who was born and lived his first years near the Helleniko pyramid -- built by his grandfather Acrisius and his grandfather's brother, Proetus -- appears (according to Apollodorus: II. i.) to have visited Africa and Ethiopia. There are many other instances in which Greeks, before the Trojan War, and even earlier, visited Egypt and spread the "holy word," which was none other than Greek knowledge. Orpheus, in the Argonautica (verse 43), says: "In Egypt, the holy word I taught." According
to Diodorus Siculus, Orpheus did his teaching two to three generations before the Trojan War, that is, around the end of the fourth millennium, B.C. The fact that Greece's civilization pre-dated Egypt's is attested to by the Egyptian priesthood during the so-called "historical" period. There exists ample
Egyptian archival documentation, compiled by Egyptian priests, concerning the pre-cataclysmic civilization of Greece, which shows that the level of Greece's civilization was ahead of Egypt's by a minimum of one millennium. In Plato's Timaeus, for instance, we are told that the Greek lawgiver, the
wise and revered Solon, "'... was held in great esteem [by the Egyptians], and, when he attempted to "'... draw them on to discourse on ancient history,'" was told by one of them the following: "'O Solon, Solon....[t]here have been, and there will be many and divers destructions of mankind....And when the Gods purge the earth with a flood of waters, all the herdsmen and shepherds that are in the mountains are saved, but those in the cities of your land are swept into the sea by the streams; whereas in our country neither then nor at any other time does the water pour down over our fields from above....[A]nd when ... like a plague, the flood from heaven comes sweeping down afresh upon your people, it leaves none of you but the unlettered and uncultured, so that you become young as ever, with no knowledge of all that happened in old times in this land or in your own.'" And the old priest continued: "'For verily, at one time, Solon, before the greatest destruction by water, what is now the Athenian State was the bravest in war and supremely well organized also in all other respects. It is [written] that it possessed the most splendid works of art and the noblest polity of any nation under heaven....[A]nd I will tell [you], both for your own sake and that of your city [Athens], and most of all for the sake of the Goddess [Athena] who has adopted for her own both your land and this of ours, and has nurtured and trained them, -- yours first by the space of a thousand years... and after that ours.'" (22.B - 23.E).



E. Conclusion

It should now be obvious to any reasonable person that -- given the scientific and historical evidence cited so far, each of these corroborating the other -- there should be little if any doubt as to when the Greek pyramids were constructed. And that those who persist in casting aspersions and telling blatant falsehoods concerning this and other facets of Greek "pre-history," may have motives not necessarily honorable or inspired by true scholarship. This suspicion becomes especially compelling when one considers that no contrary evidence of either an historical or scientific nature is ever presented to bolster the seemingly Helleno-hating position of the "ex-anatoli" brigade. We think that the facts presented here can arguably be said to conclusively prove that the Greek pyramids are at least as old, but more likely much older, than the Egyptian, and that the spread of scientific knowledge and civilization-building culture came from the Greeks towards the East and not the other way around. In view of the ever increasing data being added year-by-year in confirmation of this assertion, it is absolutely necessary that
a reconsideration of official world history by the academic establishment be made; a reconsideration that is long overdue. Science has -- over the recent past -- been able to prove that human presence on earth is several million years older than the estimates based, directly or indirectly, on the Old Testament. And, most important of all, that the dawn of human civilization has been, until now, lost in the depths of pre-cataclysmic Greek civilization. This civilization -- the most glorious of God's gift to mankind -- is slowly being discovered in the paleo-anthropological, archaeological, linguistic, and other cultural remnants that ancient Hellenism has left us.




Source
This quick study is based on an article in Davlos (No. 172. April 1996), The "Timaeus" in Plato. Vol. 9. The Loeb Classical Library. H.U.P. Cambridge, Mass. and London. re.1981, and on the book Aegyptiakes Pyramides: Ellinon Ergon (The Egyptian Pyramids: Constructed by the Greeks), by Prof. Karl Brighton. Kadmos Publ. Co., Athens. As well as on information gathered by TGR staff, who visited the Helleniko pyramid and interviewed the president (mayor) of the village and an archaeologist at the site.

[akritas_gs]

2. Amphion: The Stepped Pyramid of Thebes (dated 2000 B.C.) and it’s hidden secret.

Introduction

Amphion and Zethus were the sons of Antiope and Zeus. Abandoned by their mother at birth, they were found and reared by a shepherd. Hermes gave Amphion a lyre and he became a skilled musician; Zethus became a herdsman. Antiope was held captive by her uncle Lycus and his wife Dirce upon the orders of her father, Nycteus, king of Boeotia, as punishment for her indiscretion. She escaped and sought out her sons who were now full grown. They took her under their protection and slew Lycus and Dirce. Amphion and Zethus then proceeded to build a wall around the city that later came to be known as Thebes (from Zethus' wife, Thebe). According to legend, Amphion drew the stones used for building the wall after him by playing magical music on his lyre; he later married Niobe. The brothers are considered to be the alternative founders of Thebes to Cadmus. ed.

AMPHION and Zethus, the sons of Antiope, conquered the citadel known as the Cadmia (later called the Acropolis of Thebes) when Lycus (son of Poseidon and brother of Nycteus) was guarding the throne of Laius (Father of Oedipus). When the two brothers became kings of Cadmia, they built a new city under its Acropolis and named it Thebes, in honor of their relative Thebe. According to legend, the brothers built the city of seven gates with a miraculous method – with music. Amphion built the walls of Thebes playing his lyre and is, in fact, the one who added three more strings to this traditional four-string instrument.

Eumelus, the Corinthian poet, in his 8th century BC work Europia, mentions that Amphion was taught the lyre from Hermes himself. He would compose songs about rocks and wild animals, and in this way they obeyed him! Nevertheless the founders of Thebes had a tragic ending. Amphion’s whole family was struck by a plague, which was a punishment from the Gods for a wrongful accusation made by Amphion of the Titaness, Leto, and her children, Apollo and Artemis. Zethus died of sorrow when his mother killed his son by mistake; and again the throne of Thebes remained empty. The two brothers, Amphion and Zethus were buried in a common tomb north of Cadmia, just outside the northern gates. Legend has it that the rocks, which were placed near the grave, and had not been positioned carefully, were the ones
that followed Amphion’s music. The tomb of Amphion and Zethus was discovered and excavated by the archeologist Theodoros Spiropoulos in the time period 1971-73. The tomb is located on the hill which is found to the north of the archaeological museum of Thebes.



Study of the Site of the Amphion in Thebes" by Th. Spiropoulos, 1981.


The important thing about the tomb of Amphion is that it is the only such structure in Hellas in the shape of a stepped pyramid (Zigurat). A similar structure is found in Egypt at Zoser, which was deemed the masterpiece of of the architect Imhotep. The monument of Zethus and Amphion dates to the pre- Mycenaean proto-Hellenic period, while the box-like grave on the top of the hill dates back to the meso- Hellenic period. Therefore, this site is extremely old and similar in age to the Egyptian stepped pyramids of the 5th and 6th Dynasties (2500-2000 BC).

The sides of the hill at Amphion have been molded in continuous cone-shaped banks so that the whole structure becomes a stepped pyramid with four layers, visible from a distance. Inside the hill at Amphion, Spiropoulos discovered an amazing system of corridors, steps, passageways and drainage systems. The brick tomb at the top of the hill at Amphion follows closely the construction of the pre-dynastic Egyptian tombs which are known as "Mastabas" (W. B. Emery, Great Tombs of the First Dynasty, Cairo-London, 1958). The unique characteristic of the Egyptian "Mastabas" is that their area is larger than the underground chambers they cover -- something also true at Amphion. At the base of the hill at Amphion, at the site of a layer of rock, the Archaeologist Keramopoulos had found fragments of pre-Mycenaean vases. Beneath a layer of earth is the main tomb. Inside the Amphion, near the location of the burial chambers, is a horizontal tunnel which leads north. Going deeper, this horizontal tunnel meets a vertical chamber, which leads to another tunnel at a different (higher) level. At this point, Spiropoulos found an underground system of corridors and passageways which have yet to be fully investigated. The actual tombs of Amphion and Zethus which one would expect to encounter -- following the Egyptian Mastabas -- at a certain location of the stepped pyramid, have also not yet been found. Moreover all of the underground chambers, which according to the archaeologists must have contained statues, jewelry, etc, have not yet been unearthed.

As of now (2002), the underground excavations at Amphion are far from complete. However, on the south side of this historic hill the construction of a power plant of the Public Power Company (DEH) was permitted by the authorities. This has in fact destroyed one portion of this unique site. There is plenty of garbage in the area as well [at least it isn't being used as a garbage dump, as is the case on Salamina Island at the burial site of the warriors who fell during the famous naval battle of Salamis in September of 480 B.C. ed.].


The monument at Amphion, besides being the only stepped pyramid in Hellas, also gives us a clear example of how the builders wanted to avoid grave robbers and other calamities. According to legend, the inhabitants of Tithorea (in Phocis), used to secretly remove earth from Amphion when the sun crossed the constellation of Taurus. They believed that bringing the earth back home to Antiopis' grave would make their land more fruitful than the land of Thebes. For this reason the Thebans used to station a contingent of guards at the monument. The connection of the stepped pyramid with the entrance of the sun into the Taurus constellation also demonstrates the geodetic characteristics of Amphion. More evidence for this is that the tunnel that leads to the underground burial chamber is in line with the the
North Star.

Lastly, it should be noted that the Taurus constellation was so named because it depicts a bull (Tauros) which was the form Zeus took when he abducted the beautiful maiden Europa. Europa was Cadmus' sister, the uncle of the founders of Thebes. (The Taurus constellation is located next to the Orion constellation of which the pyramids at Giza in Egypt represent a geometric extension.)


Source. Diamantis Koutoulas in Elliniki Agogi. Dec. 2001, pages 18-23.