The myth of homosexuality in Ancient Greece or Hellas

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Efstathios

It's because i am still searching for the truth. I am quoting some things merely to put them in the table for discussion, and not to state something as defacto.

Well your above closing comment made me think you already had your mind all made up.. guess I understood wrong.

However i think that Athenaeus is one of the best texts to quote, because it has not been discussed much and he really goes into some spicy details.

If you mean that he's not been addressed in this topic indeed he hasn't but if you're speaking generally, then you'll find all "authorities" to have quoted his text, be that Symmonds, Halsall, Hubbard, Harpelin..etc

Of course he had historical innacuracies. Many writters do. But when he talked about Sophocles, and presented him like a lustfull Satyr, then there must have been something known about him. It's too much i think to claim such things and describe such events about a person that was well known in ancient Greece.

While you do have a point and the possiblity does exist there is a little problem which is related to historic inaccuracies.. I'll quote Blake Tyrrell Prof. of classics at Michigan State Uni. on this one..

Although one upmanship between verbally clever men is not
impossible, Sophocles did not write the epigram preserved by
Athenaeus from Hieronymus of Rhodes because it draws upon
Hellenistic biographies. It implies a reader familiar with the
Sophocles and Euripides developed by biographers writing long
after their deaths, among them, Satyrus of Callatis Ponitca (floruit ca.300 B.C.E.), Hieronymus of Rhodes (ca. 290−230), and Ister of Cyrene
(ca. 250−200).

We also get the information from Plutarch, about the Philosophers that had tried the masculine loves.

Didn't you read above? Plutarch clarifies what he's talking about by quoting Euripides interpretation of "ἐρῶντας τῶν παίδων" who defines it as "love of just and chaste and virtuous souls"

Was it only the aristocracy? I dont know. I tend to agree though that the erastis and eromenos thing, did not include any form of body contacts.

You again contradict your first statement with your second and by doing so, really give me a hard time of understanding what you're trying to suggest. You mention "only in aristocracy" and by doing so imply that it did take place among them and then suggest that it wasn't based on contact. Sorry but I'm lost here.

But i have a question. We all know and have read these famous laws that prohibbited adults from going to the gymnasiums when teenagers were there e.t.c. Then how could Socrates be there? How could he be everywhere that teenagers were, and not got arrested, or anything else, according to these laws?
In the end he was accused of corrupting the youth by "kena daimonia". Why not anything else, like breaking the laws multiple times, hanging out at the gymnasiums e.t.c?
Were these laws actually ever used?

This is what I meant in the discussion with Euklid. I don't see these texts as historic events but as pure philosophic text in which the writer unravels his thoughts.
I find it obvious that if they were true events then we'd see the laws applied as we did in Aeschynes' "Against Timarchus" and in Demosthenes' "Against Meidias" or even better in the "Laios myth" where Nemesis takes over but to the contrary, we read of several events in gymnasiums which makes us as you correctly did, question the selective enforcement of these laws.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Another interesting quote against the mistranslation of the meaning of "pederasty". Plutarch in his "Malice of Herodotus" accuses Herodotus of suggesting (according to the translations) that the Hellenes introduced "pederasty" to the Persians and this is how the vast majority of translations present the quote.

for example:
A. D. Godley, Ed has translated it as:

the Greeks taught them pederasty

Aubrey De Selincourt

a notable instance is pederasty, which they learned from the Greeks

Reality is quite different.

Herodotus 1.135 wrote:

ἀπ᾽ Ἑλλήνων μαθόντες παισὶ μίσγονται

"παισὶ μίσγονται" is exactly the same terminology Plutarch used:

"On the Malice of Herodotus" 857.C.2:

Πέρσες μέν φυση παισί μίσγεσθαι παρ' Έλλήνων μαθόντας

But what does this "παισὶ μίσγονται" finally mean?
παισὶ = child
μίσγονται = mingle with, have intercourse with.

So why use two words to describe the same activity that one word allegedly represents ?

[Euklid]

Another interesting thing in the quote is that it speaks about "paisi misgontai"..children...no mention to adults whatsoever...

The children unite...which could be the children interact, the children play...or even the children "synousiazontai"... also interesting is that it refers solely to children and not to children and adults, but solely to children.

.......And that word is synousia? You mean Orphea?

Misgomai[Smigo] is clear....:interact, Play, mingle, meet, and not "have sex with", but pure friendly intercourse, sex is "synousia". if we taught them how to have sex with children then why not use the proper word, and why not mention the adults? After all it is factually clear that the Ellinic society was very social, and the Persian was more closed, so this text indicates that we taught the Persian children how to interact with each other, how to become social!

[Nikephoros]

"Socrates, informed by an inner sense of purity, presented himself as a "lover" to his students because only someone who feels love for another is able to instruct him Furthermore, the cultivation of the soul he needs so he will progress and prosper must have beauty as its aim. And as we said, the Greek "creed" that stated external beauty had to enclose a beautiful inner world was the stimulus behind every wise teacher. Nevertheless, in the so-called "ped-erasty" of the time there was love on a psychic level, a union of souls, not bodies. In its original meaning it was "eros" without the accompaniment of Aphrodite, as they said. The participation of Aphrodite is what characterized bodily love. It is a fact that pederasty, in the present sense, was then a punishable offense and the courts rigorously prosecuted it. Xenophon mentions in "The Lacaedamian Republic" that Lycourgos praised as the most worthwhile form of education, the admiration of a virtuous man for the soul of a child and his endeavor to shape him into a good fellow warrior, so that he could live well in his companionship. Conversely, he considered any kind of carnal passion for the body of a child to be a great source of shame. That is why the Spartans, showed temperance in their sensual pleasures and avoided that kind.
In Athens, the institution of "pederasty" was observed in the upper classes as well. The "lover", (the "erastis") who was an adult man, gave advice and all the knowledge he possessed from his own education and experience, to an adolescent "lover" and the adult was reimbursed, in his turn, by the enjoyment of the adolescent's beauty and his grace. And to be even more clear about this, sensual pleasure for a "lover" meant nothing more than watching the naked boy in the gymnasium!
The "lover" would offer him various gifts because of this friendship. These were usually game taken in hunting, a rooster, a hare, or a dog, or perhaps a vase dedicated to the young man on which the older man had written comments in his praise."

Souli, Sofia A. Love Life of the Ancient Greeks. Toubi's Editions (Athens; 1997) pp. 64-65.

The above is a good source to consult.

[Lakonian]

Experts of Hellenic Sexuality:

Walter Pater
Michael Foucault
Jonh Boswell
John Winkler
David Halperin

The above experts of hellenic sexuality are all gay...yes they are all homosexuals and the ones who led the public to accept that Ancient Greece practiced homosexual practices and pedophilia in the public or was accepted by the polis. Do i need to add that being in the position that they are excuse the pun, they only wrote these things for the woder gay community as a desperate act of acceptance. They are human, that is enough to be accepted in society.

It is easy to see why these people chose the Hellenic people as there foundation of liberty, we are the onesof who modeled civil rights, visa vi, the acceptance of same -sex ball would play just fine on our courts!

In the ancient greek language the word Homo/Heterosexual did not exist, they used the term kinaidos to describe the people who practiced this type of sexuality.

KInaidos: the causer of shame

Kineo: to move

Aidos: shame

He who brings the curse of Aidos ( a goddess who punished moral transgressors and was a companion of Nemesis.)

Aidos was the Greek goddess of shame, modesty, and humility. Aidos, as a quality, was that feeling of reverence or shame which restrains men from wrong.0Wiki

There are references to laws against homosexual practice such as:

Aeschines " Kata Timarchou", 21

If any Athenian shall have 'Etairese' ( same sex companionship) he shall not be permited to:

1 . Become one of the nine archons.

2. nor dischrge the office of priest.

3. nor to act as an advocate for the state.

4. nor shall he hold any ofice wahtsoever at hoem or abroad, wether filled by lot or by ellection.he shal not be sent as herald.

5. he shall not take part in debate, not take part in public sacrifices.

6.and he shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people.If any man has been convicted of these sexual acts contrary to these prohibitations, shall be put to death.


Demosthenes "Kata Androtionos" Paragraph 30

"nor shall they have the right to speak, nor to bring charge before the court.

It is obvious that these laws deprived them of the right to to take part in any , social, political and hieratic activities. They becaem low class citizens "Metoikos".

Plato's laws has qouted " males do not touch males for this purpose, since it is unnatural..."

"when males unite with females for procreation the pleasure is held to be due to nature (kata physin) and when male mates with male or female with female it is considered para physin.... and that those guilty of such enormities are impelled by their slavery to pleasure..."


Then there are those sexual vase paintings, well let me say this, how logical would it be , if we in todays society be judged on the basis of movies like broke back mountain or other entertainments expressing homo acts?

Perhaps these vase painters where expressing themsleves through the vases, it say very little for the polis as a whole.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Teach 'the pleasure of gay sex' to children as young as five, say researchers

By Steve Doughty
Last updated at 8:27 AM on 16th September 2008

Children as young as five should be taught to understand the pleasures of gay sex, according to leaders of a taxpayer-funded education project.

Heads of the project have set themselves a goal of 'creating primary classrooms where queer sexualities are affirmed and celebrated'.

The ambition was revealed in documents prepared for the No Outsiders project run by researchers from universities and backed with £600,000 of public money provided by the Economic and Social Research Council.


Children as young as five should be taught about gay sex, an education project has said (file picture)


The stated purpose of the project - which is operating in 14 primary schools - is to stop bullying and prejudice aimed at homosexuals.

However, at a seminar at Exeter University tomorrow, supporters of the group will go beyond the anti-bullying agenda and discuss 'pleasure and desire in educational contexts'.

A document prepared for the seminar and couched in convoluted academic jargon says: 'The team is concerned to interrogate the desexualisation of children's bodies, the negation of pleasure and desire in educational contexts, and the tendency to shy away from discussion of (sexual) bodily activity in No Outsiders project work.

More at:
Mailonline

[pankration]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Teach 'the pleasure of gay sex' to children as young as five, say researchers

By Steve Doughty
Last updated at 8:27 AM on 16th September 2008

Children as young as five should be taught to understand the pleasures of gay sex, according to leaders of a taxpayer-funded education project.

Heads of the project have set themselves a goal of 'creating primary classrooms where queer sexualities are affirmed and celebrated'.

The ambition was revealed in documents prepared for the No Outsiders project run by researchers from universities and backed with £600,000 of public money provided by the Economic and Social Research Council.


Children as young as five should be taught about gay sex, an education project has said (file picture)


The stated purpose of the project - which is operating in 14 primary schools - is to stop bullying and prejudice aimed at homosexuals.

However, at a seminar at Exeter University tomorrow, supporters of the group will go beyond the anti-bullying agenda and discuss 'pleasure and desire in educational contexts'.

A document prepared for the seminar and couched in convoluted academic jargon says: 'The team is concerned to interrogate the desexualisation of children's bodies, the negation of pleasure and desire in educational contexts, and the tendency to shy away from discussion of (sexual) bodily activity in No Outsiders project work.

More at:
Mailonline

I would be just as offended if they were to introduce heterosexual "pleasure" into a kindergarten class. Has the world gone insane?

[Vasot]

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - The Myth is Collapsing

VIDEO IN YOUTUBE

YouTube - Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - The... " title="YouTube - Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - The..." target="_blank">YouTube - Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - The...

[Ariadni_Nefeli]

Ι have an interesting discussion in youtube with a foreigner who created a video about the ''eternal love'' of Alexander and Hefestion (good God!) and he said he studies History and...knows for a fact about the...''ancient gays'', and I am thinking to invite him over if you are ok with that, and discuss some things.

I am not having any hopes about something, I know that this whole shitty thing with the Oxford gay brotherhood is going way back and way deep, but it is a good chance to make a point to people, if he is also willing to discuss. He is very kind so far.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Would be nice.. sure.
Since your topic of discussion is Alexander check out this thread also: