For pro-Greek in ancient Macedonian language

[Andrew]

For those of you who consider the ancient macedonian language as a dialect of Greek , please answer what do you think about it's exact nature:

1) Was it an archaic North Western Greek dialect
2) Was it an Aeolian dialect
3) Was it a proto-continental Greek , that is it originated from the common Doric-Aeolic bulk beefore their separations in separate greek dialects and defined "undifferenciated proto-continental" greek.
4) Other options

NOTE : I'm refering to the dialect of the founders of Aegea and later inhabitants of the Old Kingdom , to distinguish them from the "molossian" (that is pure North Western) Greek tribes of Upper Macedonia , that became later politicaly included.

[Andrew]

I voted for "undifferanciated" greek that became more NW by isolation main taining though some of it's "Aeolisms" because we have both Ancient and Modern scholars oscilating among Aeolic and Doric.

[Ptolemy]

In South Macedonia there was a dialect akin to North Thessaly (Mostly Aeolian) and In Upper Macedonia there was a dialect (North West Greek) similar to Epirus.

[Andrew]

As Macedonian dialect I'm refering to those of the "pre-Persian" Old Kingdom, before the expansion to Upper Macedonia and Eastern to Axius regions.

[prudence]

It's too bad there isn't more written evidence of this language to finally shut up those idiotic Skopjan propagandists.

Sorry to get off topic, but even if their "Slavicization" theory of the Macedonians is true, how can they overlook that Macedonia was completely Atticized (they would say "Hellenized") for at least 500 years before any Slavs stepped foot there? Even if their theory is true, how can they deny that a large portion of the ancient Macedonian stock was "Hellenized" and remains so to this day? How can they know this and say that the only true Macedonian is one who speaks their Slavonic language?

Are they retarded?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by prudence

It's too bad there isn't more written evidence of this language to finally shut up those idiotic Skopjan propagandists.

Sorry to get off topic, but even if their "Slavicization" theory of the Macedonians is true, how can they overlook that Macedonia was completely Atticized (they would say "Hellenized") for at least 500 years before any Slavs stepped foot there? Even if their theory is true, how can they deny that a large portion of the ancient Macedonian stock was "Hellenized" and remains so to this day? How can they know this and say that the only true Macedonian is one who speaks their Slavonic language?

Are they retarded?

You're not out of topic , because it's mainly a discusion about the ancient macedonian language ...I would like to add/correct the number 500 to 900 years of the slav invasions after the Macedonian "Atticization" ...which makes their claims even stupidier !!!!

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

Originally Posted by prudence

It's too bad there isn't more written evidence of this language to finally shut up those idiotic Skopjan propagandists.

Sorry to get off topic, but even if their "Slavicization" theory of the Macedonians is true, how can they overlook that Macedonia was completely Atticized (they would say "Hellenized") for at least 500 years before any Slavs stepped foot there? Even if their theory is true, how can they deny that a large portion of the ancient Macedonian stock was "Hellenized" and remains so to this day? How can they know this and say that the only true Macedonian is one who speaks their Slavonic language?

Are they retarded?

I am afraid they volanteer to be retarded !

I was in a tour in ancient Karia and Lycaea in Turkey. It is incredible how these non-Greek people had been Hellenized after Alexander's conquest. Theaters like the ones in Greece, architecture similar to the original Greek, inscriptions in impeccable Greek (only some names were obviously not Greek but Hellenized), in one word a Greek world. All that in cities of the interior, 200 and 250 kilometers from the coast.

If this happened to people undoubtedly non-Greek, it is very easy to imagine what happened to the ancient Macedonians. Even if we accept that they were a mixed race, Greeks mixed with Illyrians and Thracians, it is obvious from the few inscriptions (the most significant the famous "Curse tablet") that they were speaking Greek, may be a rough Greek dialect, but basically Greek. This is the conclusion of OLIVIER MASON in OXFORD CLASSICAL DICTIONARY.

So, as you very aptly say, after almost 900 years under Greek cultural influence, or better domination, those ancient Macedonians would have been completely Hellenized. As for them being proud of being Macedonians, so were Spartans proud of being Spartans and Pontians proud of being Pontians : But they were feeling as being parts of the Hellenic World, they were first Greeks and then Macedonians or Spartans etc.

CONCLUSION:
When the Slavs arrived and settled in the Balkans, they no doubt mixed with the locals, either Thracians or Greeks. This "Slavization" was far from complete, though : In Western Macedonia (region of Grevena and partly region of Kozani) there were no Slavic speakers in 1900. The same holds for Chalkidiki. There were very few Slavic speakers in Pierria (Katerini) region also.
On the contrary, there were many Slavic speakers in Florina, Kastoria, Kilkis and Eastern Macedonia areas. In Thessaloniki, there were hardly 5000 Bulgarians, mostly immigrants who were incited to go there by the Bulgarian Govt. Thessaloniki was dominated by Jews and Turks. Even Greeks were at most 20 %.

Generally speaking, what is today's our Greek Macedonia had no more than 30-35% Greeks in 1900. Turks were 40% plus. The rest were Slavic speakers, Jews and others. [ This situation was radically changed after the settlement of the refugees following the population exchange of 1923].

The Slavization was much greater in what is today's FYROM and the Pirin district of Bulgaria. There the Slavic element was dominant.

As for the national consiousness of this Slavic element, it was vague, but it was rather Bulgarian. It was only due to the arrogant behavior of the Bulgarians from the motherland (Sofia) that made some people of the greater Macedonia region to aquire gradually a separatist view and begin to call themselves Macedonians, after the name of the land where they were born, and not because of remembrances of a glorious past, as the FYROM "historians" naively insist.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ

As for the national consiousness of this Slavic element, it was vague, but it was rather Bulgarian. It was only due to the arrogant behavior of the Bulgarians from the motherland (Sofia) that made some people of the greater Macedonia region to aquire gradually a separatist view and begin to call themselves Macedonians, after the name of the land where they were born, and not because of remembrances of a glorious past, as the FYROM "historians" naively insist.

IT might have been due to the arrogant behaviour of the Bulgarians that a few began to call themselves Macedonians,but it was only due to communism(the Tito brand) that many did the same.

[Mygdonia]

This is what I have in my notes.

* Macedonian δάνος dánοs ('death', from PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave'), compare Attic θάνος thános
* Macedonian ἀβροῦτες abroûtes or ἀβροῦϜες abroûwes as opposed to Attic ὀφρῦς ophrûs for 'eyebrows'
* Macedonian Βερενίκη Bereníkē versus Attic Φερενίκη Phereníkē, 'bearing victory'
* Macedonian ἄδραια adraia ('bright weather'), compare Attic αἰθρία aithría, from PIE *h2aidh-
* Macedonian βάσκιοι báskioi ('fasces'), Attic φάσκωλος pháskōlos 'leather sack' , from PIE *bhasko
* According to Herodotus 7.73 (ca. 440 BC), the Macedonians claimed that the Phryges were called Brygoi before they migrated from Thrace to Anatolia (around 1200 BC).
* According to Plutarch,Moralia[2] Macedonians use 'b' instead of 'ph',while Delphians use 'b' in the place of 'p'.
* Macedonian μάγειρος mágeiros ('butcher') was a loan from Doric into Attic. Vittore Pisani has suggested an ultimately Macedonian origin for the word, which could then be cognate to μάχαιρα mákhaira ('knife', <PIE *magh-, 'to fight')

The same treatment is known from other Paleo-Balkan languages, e.g. Phrygian brater, Illyrian (and Elean, North-West dialect, by exception) bra but Attic phrater and phratra all from PIE *bhrater- brother. Since these languages are all known via the Greek alphabet, which has no signs for voiced aspirates, it is unclear whether de-aspiration had really taken place, or whether β, δ, γ were just picked as the closest matches to express voiced aspirates.

If γοτάν gotán ('pig') is related to *gwou ('cattle'), this would indicate that the labiovelars were either intact, or merged with the velars, unlike the usual Greek treatment (Attic βοῦς boûs). Such deviations, however, are not unknown in Greek dialects; compare Doric (Spartan) γλεπ- glep- for common Greek βλεπ- blep-, as well as Doric γλάχων gláchōn and Ionic γλήχων glēchōn for common Greek βλήχων blēchōn.

A number of examples suggest that voiced velar stops were devoiced, especially word-initially: κάναδοι kánadoi, 'jaws' (<PIE *genu-); κόμβους kómbous, 'molars' (<PIE *gombh-); within words: ἀρκόν arkón (Attic ἀργός argós); the Macedonian toponym Akesamenai, from the Pierian name Akesamenos (if Akesa- is cognate to Greek agassomai, agamai, "to astonish"; cf. the Thracian name Agassamenos).

In Aristophanes' The Birds, the form κεβλήπυρις keblēpyris ('red-cap bird') is found, showing a Macedonian-style voiced stop in place of a standard Greek unvoiced aspirate: κεβ(α)λή keb(a)lē versus κεφαλή kephalē ('head').

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by prudence

It's too bad there isn't more written evidence of this language to finally shut up those idiotic Skopjan propagandists.

Sorry to get off topic, but even if their "Slavicization" theory of the Macedonians is true, how can they overlook that Macedonia was completely Atticized (they would say "Hellenized") for at least 500 years before any Slavs stepped foot there? Even if their theory is true, how can they deny that a large portion of the ancient Macedonian stock was "Hellenized" and remains so to this day? How can they know this and say that the only true Macedonian is one who speaks their Slavonic language?

Are they retarded?

I think that you are misinformed about his theory.
If its true, it means that ancient macedonians spoke "slavic"(if really slavic migration did happened)! So it means that the language that I speak has roots from the ancient macedonian, cause some words and the grammar are similar or identical with the modern macedonian and his dialects, and of course with the other "slavic" languages.
But its still a theory. Tentov(btw Aristotel Tentov has a interesting name ey) and Boshevski were called in St. Petersburg in some university(I think it was called "Puskin") few weeks ago and they represented there their findings and the method they used. So we will see what will happen. They say that they have tried their method on other stones and they say that it works.
If this theory comes a fact, many things will change.
So we will be the only true Macedonians!
But like I said. Its a THEORY.