Albanians are your brothers ;)

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

there is also a sense of justice and a sense that mistakes have been made on both sides and the property is theirs.

But the property is not theirs, it was lawfully confiscated. Annulling the war crime confiscations would be a big "screw you" to justice.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Draco

But the property is not theirs, it was lawfully confiscated. Annulling the war crime confiscations would be a big "screw you" to justice.

the courts will handle this and an agreement will be reached. Not all collaborated even if the accusations are true. I know, and you know, that especially in the 1930-40's, Muslims had no place in Greece and any excuse to get rid of them would have been good. Especially since they were right on the Albanian border, grouped and unlikely to assimilate.

Now On Gheg vs Tosk, I was right:

-------- http://www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-XII13.htm (map included)

Once outside the Montenegrin area, the face loses its excessive height; the mean menton-nasion diameter of the Ghegs is 124 mm., comparable to face heights in southern Germany and Switzerland. The greatest heights, reaching a mean of 126 mm. in Has, are found in the east, along the edges of the plain of Kossovo; the shortest, reaching 121 mm. in Mirdita, are located in the central mountain nucleus, from Dukagin to Mati. This regional pattern is clearly shown by the facial index, which runs from 86 in the center and west, to 89 in the east. All tribes but Has, however, are mesoprosopic. The upper facial index is even more variable: the mean for Mirdita is 49; for Has 54; this range is nearly as great as that for all of Europe. The noses of the Ghegs, 58 mm. high by 34 mm. wide, are among the world's most leptorrhine, with a mean nasal index of 58.

Metrically the Gheg tribes present a complex situation; the rapid progression from north to south in stature and in the breadths of the head and face show that the Borreby-like nucleus of Old Montenegro does not extend far southward into Albania. The tall, northern tribesmen are the most heavily built, the shorter southern ones the most sparely; a conven-tional Dinaric build goes with the shorter stature level. In the eastern tribes there is strong evidence of a moderately tall, long-faced, dolichocephalic element; while a short-faced element, metrically suggestive of Alpines, is centered in the very remote mountain valleys of Mirdita.

Almost all of the Ghegs are light-skinned, with the von Luschan #3 and 7 most frequently represented. Freckling, common in Montenegro, is rare here; what little there is is confined almost entirely to the tribes nearest Old Montenegro, and here it reaches but 5 per cent. The head hair is usually brunet, with black or near black reaching 40 per cent, and dark to medium brown 45 per cent. Light brown or blond hair, which is almost always on the golden or slightly rufous side, accounts for the other 15 per cent. Only two men out of 1100 were found to have ash-blond hair. As in Montenegro, the beards are much lighter than the head hair; the black contingent is reduced to 6 per cent, while 36 per cent are reddish brown or auburn, 3 per cent red, and 30 per cent golden blond or light brown with a golden tinge. The rufous tendency, while not as pronounced as in parts of Montenegro, exists to the virtual exclusion of ash-blondism. Regionally, the darkest hair is found in Mirdita and in the eastern border; the lightest in the west and south.

Seventeen per cent of Ghegs have pure brown eyes, and 7 per cent pure light ones. Half the group has green-brown iris combinations and 20 per cent blue-brown. Of the mixed eyes, 30 per cent are dark-mixed, and 48 per cent predominantly light, the rest nearly even. The Ghegs are, therefore, thoroughly mixed, or almost completely intermediate, in eye color, with the blond element or elements slightly more important than the brunet. The darkest eyes are found in Dukagin, and in Malsia Jakova, on the border of Old Serbia; there 25 per cent of eyes are brown. Elsewhere there is little regional differentiation.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

the courts will handle this and an agreement will be reached.

The courts did handle it. It's over now.

Originally Posted by Grace

Not all collaborated even if the accusations are true. I know, and you know, that especially in the 1930-40's, Muslims had no place in Greece and any excuse to get rid of them would have been good. Especially since they were right on the Albanian border, grouped and unlikely to assimilate.

You are speculating. As for those who did not collaborate, their properties were not touched. We have just under 100 law-abiding Chams still in "Chameria" (there would have been more however many gradually and voluntarily emigrated).

[Cadmus]

As far as I'm concern Albanians are in the Balkans at least from 200 AD since Claudius Ptolemy names a city Albanopolis in South Illyricum

Andrew making assumptions like that on the basis of only a town, is not really convincing.
What about the vast area called Albania in the Caucasus isnt that more credible if we want to use such prognoses based on geographical names?

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Andrew making assumptions like that on the basis of only a town, is not really convincing.
What about the vast area called Albania in the Caucasus isnt that more credible if we want to use such prognoses based on geographical names?

how about the fact that Albanians are Europeans and almost identical to Greeks, DNA wise? Is that better that basing everything on a name, where Alba is very popular?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Andrew making assumptions like that on the basis of only a town, is not really convincing.
What about the vast area called Albania in the Caucasus isnt that more credible if we want to use such prognoses based on geographical names?

Cadmus I know that the albanian language is originating or from the Illyrian one or from the Dacian one (more probable) ..in both cases it is an ancient balkanian language ...that's why Caucasos doesn't convince me.

I personaly see the Albnanians as Dacians ..their Name Albanians soem say derives from Albo = white , but I see a connection with Arbor = tree , like Dardania = treeland , like Transylvania = Ultra Forrested . Don't forget that Balkans in the turk language means "ultraforrested mountains".

They have so many latin loans that it's heighly unprobable to bee from Caucasus.

They have the heighest E-V13 (Central Balkan neolithic marker).

So what we can argue is if the Albanians are Illyrians or Not , but the fact that they are Balkanians I think it as certain.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

The rufous tendency, while not as pronounced as in parts of Montenegro, exists to the virtual exclusion of ash-blondism

Thanks Grace !!

That rufus/blond-redish think was interesting. Since it's relatively rare in Greece . In Greece light hair is light brown or blond proper ..but rarely rufous.

It could turn out that the whole Illyrians were of Dacian descent , since you say that rufous hair is more frequent in Montenegro (near the Illyrian nucleus of Glasinac) and so as Dacians had red hair like the Thracians.

[Grace]

Montenegro, Malesia (Alb and Kosova alps) and Hercegovina might be one people, similar enough due to assimilation, that kept moving as threats came. No roads, no Turk. Never. Eventually they paid a symbolic tribute yearly but that's it, and all were armed. They are legends of Montengrin tribes being Albanians that went to the dark side but who knows. It's one mountain and we did lose quite a bit of land in 1912, Ulcinj is (or was) 100% Albanian for example.

What I posted before is from Coon who actually measured them (controversial, but unless he lied, numbers and observations can be used).
The Mountain of Giants: A Racial and Cultural Study of the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs. Carleton S. Coon
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...114/2972/646-a


http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-...untain%20Ghegs

[TirAlb]

Red hairs are rare in Albania as well.I think in all my life i have seen one or two red hair people.So its not common.I know very well northern Albania an Montenegro and i have never seen red hair people there,a lot of blonds though.For example some weeks ago someone here in the forum brought a race calculator,and my result was more than 90% akin with dinaric and less than 30% will all the other races,im also above the Albanian height average,but i have black hairs.So these things are always relative.

[Melbourne]

TirAlb, on a totally different note I have read that at the end of WW1, Elbasan and Koritsa were biggest towns in Albania with 12,000 and 10,000 people respectively, while Tirana only had 1200!!!

What happened, to make Tirana the capital when it was but a village, and how did it grow so fast?