Albanians are your brothers ;)

[Draco]

I support good Greek-Albanian relations, we are both έθνη ανάδελφα ("brotherless nations") so it makes sense for ideological reasons (although while ideology can justify adopting or dismissing a position it is rarely the reason for doing so as other considerations are usually the real motivation). Unfortunately though, for some reason, Albanians hate us and will continue to hate us until we cede all of southern Epirus to Albania. Greeks with more than half a brain cell have given up ambitions on nothern Epirus, but Albanians still believe a change in the Greek-Albanian border is possible.

[Grace]

Draco,
the main issue:
Albos value blood over religion
Greeks side with Russians or Serbs over a '100% Greek' who converts to Islam or Catholicism.

the Chameria issue is for the people to get their properties or compensation and do not be so sure about everyone forgetting, but I admit, Greece short of a military junta will not start a war for it. Serbs in Kosova will get their properties back, and probably sell to move, and any Greek with property in Albanian but left outside for any reason should get their properties.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

<< And personally I don't have any reason to "hate" the Albanians.

kudos to you. But you have seen the "Albanians have no history," "they came with the Turks or in 1043, thus they must leave," 'gypsies,' "North is Serbs, south is Greek" (kinda funny especially coming from the latecomer Serbs ) etc etc. They should ease up on Albanians. We're trying, and after falling have hit every branch so far. Sadly no one occupied us after WWII and we didn't get a Tito.

Fallmerayer thesis is funny to tease some guys, but I don't know much about him.

As far as I'm concern Albanians are in the Balkans at least from 200 AD since Claudius Ptolemy names a city Albanopolis in South Illyricum . The language and genetics prove the same thing ...Personaly what interests me is to find out if they are Illyrians or Dacians in my general interest for Balkanian ancient history, but what ever they are they sure are among the oldest in the Balkans.

now it's sad that not everybody feels like me ..and I know that many greeks have the bad tendency on insulting you Albanians ...but ...you know nobody is perfect .

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

Draco,
the main issue:
Albos value blood over religion
Greeks side with Russians or Serbs over a '100% Greek' who converts to Islam or Catholicism.

True, but this is just a cultural particularity that can't be changed.

Originally Posted by Grace

the Chameria issue is for the people to get their properties or compensation and do not be so sure about everyone forgetting, but I admit, Greece short of a military junta will not start a war for it. Serbs in Kosova will get their properties back, and probably sell to move, and any Greek with property in Albanian but left outside for any reason should get their properties.

You must understand that as far as Greeks are concerned the "Chameria issue" is a non-issue, there is nothing to discuss. Properties confiscated by judgement of an internationally recognized war crimes tribunal will not be returned. Moreover, Albanian claims are totally unrealistic; even if the confiscation were unlawful (which they have not yet demonstrated to be), the properties would not be restored and monetary compensation would not cover the value of the properties. It would just be a symbolic reconciliation compensation.

Albanians would do well to focus on actual issues, namely as the circumstances of the Albanian immigrants in Greece. Consider legalization so that they can claim the national minimum wage and state benefits (such as health care).

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

first, the fact that Hitler cited him doesn't mean much. He did it to demoralize you and he would have cited Einstein if it helped him. A lot of other people were surprised at they too as well, you know the bandits, the Turkish habits, the Albanians dress and the darker skin. But they had based their ideas on what they thought Greeks once looked.

To add to my previous post on why the E3 line might now show as much: Albanians also have a strong J2 line and then a mix of other types. In Albania probably the J2 etc fill the space when the E3 is weaker.

Here let me help you :

Both Greeks and Albanians share pretty much the same : E-V13 , J2 , R1a1 and I or P15 ..that's why in the table of Cavalli-Sforza they are so similar.

The only difference is tha tthe Albanians have a little more E-V13 (30%) than the Greeks (20%) and the Greeks have a little more of J2 (14%) instead of the Albanian 10%. R1a1 : Albos have it 9,8% and Greeks have it 11,8%
..etc...

[Tsontos]

the Chameria issue is for the people to get their properties or compensation and do not be so sure about everyone forgetting, .

So many Albanians live in a complete dream world about this "issue". Why should Greece, so much more powerful and wealthy than Albania feel the need to backtrack on an issue in which it feels it's current position is entirely justified? No party in Greece would support the return of property to or any recognition whatsoever of Nazi collaborators.

I cant explain to you just how much of a non-issue it is for Greeks.

the main issue:
Albos value blood over religion
Greeks side with Russians or Serbs over a '100% Greek' who converts to Islam or Catholicism.

Yes yes we know how secular albanians love to crap on about blood before ethnicity etc. That's why religious Muslim Albanians get labelled "Turks". In reality rather than any intrinsic preference for atheism which Albanians seem to believe they have, it has more to do with historical circumstances (Ottoman occupation and then Communism).

As far as Greek-Albanian relations gain Greece has little to gain from greatly improved relations but it has nothing to gain from lukewarm or bad relations either. My main concern would be controlling the flow of illegal immigrants into Greece from Albania.

[Truth Bearer]

maybe with the Tosks as they do look quite similar.As with the Ghegs though no way they are fairer and taller that the Tosks.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

maybe with the Tosks as they do look quite similar.As with the Ghegs though no way they are fairer and taller that the Tosks.

2 Ghegs that I know have that blond-redish hair color and open eye color just as the ancient Thracians , since Xanophanes (500 BC) said that the ancient Thracians were heigh , light-eyed and with blond-redish hair .....
..that's why the Greeks named them "Thracians" ..άνΘραξ in ancient Greek means incandescent charcoal , the blond-redish color of the fire !!

Can some Albo helps us ..is that color common in the Ghegs ??..if that's so it's another "proof" of the Thraco-Dacian descent of the Albos !

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Andrew

2 Ghegs that I know have that blond-redish hair color and open eye color just as the ancient Thracians , since Xanophanes (500 BC) said that the ancient Thracians were heigh , light-eyed and with blond-redish hair .....
..that's why the Greeks named them "Thracians" ..άνΘραξ in ancient Greek means incandescent charcoal , the blond-redish color of the fire !!

Can some Albo helps us ..is that color common in the Ghegs ??..if that's so it's another "proof" of the Thraco-Dacian descent of the Albos !

Gegs are more dinaric types. USUALLY taller and leaner, especially the mountain types. Regarding looks, Albanians were known to be "white" among Balkans. Byron, Durham etc always point out that and the tallness. Wild, savages, braggarts, drunks (fearless and loyal too; Byron especially) but tall and with a good physique. The thing is that Byron and Durham noticed that south too, and noted that if a soldier looked great, it always was an Albanian
see some pictures of Albanian soldiers in Egypt with Mehemet Ali:

http://www.balkanium.com/gallery/v/C...Egypt.jpg.html


Northern Mountaineers:
http://www.galeriashqiptare.net/albu...e-mahe1908.jpg

Quotes:

"The Albanians, these tigers of mountain wars ... have as their religion rebellion. Even their worst warrior is one of the strongest and bravest on the battle-field, just as if he was a knight on the legendary horse. But he has no horse, nor proper weapons for battle. Instead of the horse, he has a lance which strikes as lightning, he has spears who's points are full of posion as the sting of hornets, he has also a wooden bow with some arrows. Furthermore, he is stronger than iron ... "
- Ibn Kemal, Historian of the Turkish court

"The story of the Albanians deserves a study in itself. Attracted by the 'sword, the gold trappings, and the honours, they left their mountains chiefly in order to become soldiers. In the sixteenth century they were to be found in Cyprus, in Venice, in Mantua, in Rome, in Naples, and Sicily, and as far abroad as Madrid, where they went to present their projects and their grievances, to ask for barrels of gunpowder or years of pension, arrogant, imperious, always ready for a fight."

- Nicholas Pappas

"The Gueghes are thickset and muscular, the Toskes slender and agile, both strong, vigorous, and perhaps the finest race in Europe."
"The characteristics common to both people are love of independence, love of war, a revengual spirit, mering into ferocity."

"They are wild, plundering, indefatigable soldiers, selling their services and their blood to those who pay them highest; but lively, gay, adventurous, sober, generous and heroic so soon as it concerns the defence of their country, their tribe, or their family."

"They are an iron race, as hard as the rocks they inhabit."

"The Arnaouts, or Albanese, struck me forcibly by their resemblance to the Highlanders of Scotland, in dress, figure and manner of language."

- Lord Byron

[Grace]

Tsontos,
go ahead with your attitude. What can I say. if we threw out all the Greeks, and kept their property what would say? Accuse them of collaborating with Greece to annex the south Albania? As far as Greece being more powerful: it is, but there is also a sense of justice and a sense that mistakes have been made on both sides and the property is theirs.

If we somehow become more powerful is it right to say screw you and do whatever we want?

Albanians got labeled "Turks" because that's how it was back then: religion was it, and we do get along very well.