DNA evidence on Ancient Greek women...

[zefs]

DNA explodes Greek myth about womenBritish researchers have unearthed evidence that proves Helen was much more than a chattel

Robin McKie, science editor The Observer, Sunday June 1 2008 Article historyWomen in Ancient Greece were major power brokers in their own right, researchers have discovered, and often played key roles in running affairs of state. Until now it was thought they were treated little better than servants.

The discovery is part of an investigation by Manchester researchers into the founders of Mycenae, Europe's first great city-state and capital of King Agamemnon's domains.

'It was thought that in those days women were rated as little more than chattels in Ancient Greece,' said Professor Terry Brown, of the faculty of life sciences at Manchester University. 'Our work now suggests that notion is wrong.'

Mycenae is one of the most important and evocative archaeological sites in Europe. According to legend, Agamemnon led his armies from Mycenae to Troy to bring back Helen - the wife of his ally, Menelaus - who had run off with the Trojan prince Paris.

The citadel was first excavated in the 1870s by Heinrich Schliemann, who uncovered tombs containing crumbling bones draped with jewels and gold face masks. 'I have discovered the graves of Agamemnon, Eurymedon, and their companions, all slain at a banquet by Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthos,' he told the King of Greece.

In fact, the graves have since been dated and shown to be too old for those of Agamemnon. Nevertheless, Mycenae has since proved to be a treasure trove of archaeological riches. Most recently, these have involved scientists using a range of new techniques, including facial reconstruction work carried out by Manchester researchers John Prag and Richard Neave. They recreated the faces of seven individuals whose skeletons had been excavated at a circle of graves inside the citadel.

The images provided scientists with a family picture album for the rulers of Europe's first great city-state. However, genetics experts have now taken this work a stage further by attempting to extract DNA from 22 of the 35 bodies found in the grave circle. 'The facial reconstructions were carried out 10 years ago, but it is only now that scientists have developed sensitive enough techniques to get DNA from skeletons as old as these,' said Brown. 'In each case we had to deal with a single cell's worth of DNA.'

The genetic material isolated by the scientists is known as mitochondrial DNA, which humans inherit exclusively from their mothers. However, of the 22 skeletons that were tested, only four produced enough DNA for full analysis. Nevertheless, findings from these provided a shock for the team from Manchester.

While two of the males had DNA that indicated they were unrelated, the genetic material extracted from the remaining pair, a man and a woman, revealed they were brother and sister. They had been thought to have been man and wife.

'To be precise our DNA evidence suggests the pair were closely related, possibly siblings or possibly cousins. However, the facial reconstruction work of Prag and Neave also shows they were very similar in appearance which indicates they were brother and sister,' said Brown.

The critical point, he said, was that the woman was thought to have been buried in a richly endowed grave because she was the wife of a powerful man. That was in keeping with previous ideas about Ancient Greece - that women had little power and could only exert influence through their husbands.

'But this discovery shows both the man and the woman were of equal status and had equal power,' he said. 'Women in Ancient Greece held positions of power by right of birth, it now appears.

'The problem has been that up until recently our interpretation of life in Ancient Greece has been the work of a previous generations of archaeologists, then a male-oriented profession and who interpreted their findings in a male-oriented way. That is changing now and women in Ancient Greece are being seen in a new light.'

guardian.co.uk

[Andrew]

Well about the position of the women that is well known....
All the pre-greek societies were MATRIARCHALS and the Carians in Asia Minor continued on being so in historic times.

About the marriage between brothers and cousins ..that confirmes what NGL Hammond said about the archaic nomadic tribes of the Balkans: "In the early Balkans , the small tribe was the organized unit of social life and it seems that it maintained it's identity by ENDOGAMY (IN-BREEDING)".
The masters of Mycenae were descended from that proto-hellenic nomadic tribes ...so they continued their tribal usances in the new urban way of life.
So when a small tribe practices endogamy ..sooner or later everybody ends related to everybody ...

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Well about the position of the women that is well known....
All the pre-greek societies were MATRIARCHALS and the Carians in Asia Minor continued on being so in historic times.

About the marriage between brothers and cousins ..that confirmes what NGL Hammond said about the archaic nomadic tribes of the Balkans: "In the early Balkans , the small tribe was the organized unit of social life and it seems that it maintained it's identity by ENDOGAMY (IN-BREEDING)".
The masters of Mycenae were descended from that proto-hellenic nomadic tribes ...so they continued their tribal usances in the new urban way of life.
So when a small tribe practices endogamy ..sooner or later everybody ends related to everybody ...

This endogamy between brothers and cousins doesn't increase the danger of the birth of children with mendal retardation?I heard once by a biology teacher in high school that this danger disappears totally only after 7 generations.Is it true or tosa ixere tosa elege,because he wasn't actually a biologist but a physicomathematician.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kostas68

This endogamy between brothers and cousins doesn't increase the danger of the birth of children with mendal retardation?I heard once by a biology teacher in high school that this danger disappears totally only after 7 generations.Is it true or tosa ixere tosa elege,because he wasn't actually a biologist but a physicomathematician.

Yiap it increases the risk IF in the close comunity there are pathological gene frequences major than the ones of the whole population ...To make an example: if the close endogamic comunity is a glass of water ...then a drop of ink can alterate it's colour ..but in the whole population ("a bucket of water") then the drop of ink does not change anything...

So what was the greek solution to the "Collateral effects" of Endogamy??
Eugenetics !!! Spartans dropped the "pathological" childen from Kaeadas and the rest of Greeks practiced "Exposition" , that is leaving the "pathological" children alone in the forest ..it is the case of Oedipus ..his father Laios abbandoned him became he had "swollen foot" (Oedi - pus).

But these colateral effects are strong until first cousins ..from second cousins and then ..it's the same like marrying someone from the same little village ...

About the 7 generations stuff ..the teacher proved you he is a physicomathematician ...why am I saying that ... In exponential reductions academic physisists and mathematecians consider as "zero point" the Exp(-7) =e^(-7) = 0,00091188

In biology and medicine they are happy with the numbers 3 or 4:

exp(-1) = 1/e =0,3678
exp(-2) = [1/e]^2 = 0,1353
exp(-3) = [1/e]^3 =0,05
exp(-4) = [1/e]^4 = 0,018
.......etc.....

So let's say that 7 gen is the threshold of 99,999% security
3 is the threshold of 95% security

[Alita]

The odds can't have hurt them too bad since we're all here and still philosophising.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Andrew

So what was the greek solution to the "Collateral effects" of Endogamy??
Eugenetics !!! Spartans dropped the "pathological" childen from Kaeadas and the rest of Greeks practiced "Exposition" , that is leaving the "pathological" children alone in the forest ..

The ancient Greeks had also invented a kind of euthanasia.The city of Naxos had a law that obligated every one citizen who reached the age of 70 to commit suicide drinking conium.(I hope our minister of health and social securance doesn't read this,it's not a good idea for the solution of the pension problem).

Originally Posted by Andrew

it is the case of Oedipus ..his father Laios abbandoned him became he had "swollen foot" (Oedi - pus).

Oedipus was abandoned by his parents not because he had a health problem but due to an oracle from Delphi.According to that oracle,if a son was born by Laios and Iocasta,when he would grow up he would kill his father and marry his mother.He gave him to a shepheard in order to abandon the baby in the mountains.The shepheard punctured his feet and tied them up and therefore they got swollen but he didn't abandon him,he gave him to the shepheard of the king of Corinth,Polybos,who was childless.Polybos adopted the baby and gave him the name Oedipus due to his swollen feet.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Oedipus was abandoned by his parents not because he had a health problem but due to an oracle from Delphi.According to that oracle,if a son was born by Laios and Iocasta,when he would grow up he would kill his father and marry his mother.He gave him to a shepheard in order to abandon the baby in the mountains.The shepheard punctured his feet and tied them up and therefore they got swollen but he didn't abandon him,he gave him to the shepheard of the king of Corinth,Polybos,who was childless.Polybos adopted the baby and gave him the name Oedipus due to his swollen feet.

I know this is the "official" version of the myth ... What I posted is a interpretation of Dumezil that wanted to explain the name with the "exposition" usancy in Greece.. An other mythologist even gave another explanation ...Swollen foot because he travelled a lot ..before returning home ...

Dumezil and Vernant also hypothetized that when Sophocles made his "Oedipus" he did it as an advise of stopping the "exposition" of the Athenians ... and if this hypothesis is true that means that "exposition" was continuing as an usancy in late classical antiquity in one of the most "culturarly advanced" cities like "golden age" Athens.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I know this is the "official" version of the myth ... What I posted is a interpretation of Dumezil that wanted to explain the name with the "exposition" usancy in Greece.. An other mythologist even gave another explanation ...Swollen foot because he travelled a lot ..before returning home ...

Dumezil and Vernant also hypothetized that when Sophocles made his "Oedipus" he did it as an advise of stopping the "exposition" of the Athenians ... and if this hypothesis is true that means that "exposition" was continuing as an usancy in late classical antiquity in one of the most "culturarly advanced" cities like "golden age" Athens.

Interesting all these,but Oedipus wasn't mentioned nowhere(in the <official> and the <unofficial> versions of the myth of Lavdakides house) as someone with a health problem in his feet or elsewhere.Thus,we can cocnclude(allthough it isn't rational to conclude by myths)that the damage of his feet wasn't permanent.
By this myth wasn't emphasized Oedipus' health problems but the old curse that hit Lavdakos due to his sins and was later fullfiled on his descendands.
Now back to the endogamy between brothers and sisters,i think this was an ancient custom of the Egyptian royal families and was also adopted by the Macedonian dynasty of Egypt but this endogamy caused hemophilia to the male members of the family.Therefore only the female members(Cleopatra)acceded to the throne,because hemophilia affects only men.
Something simmilar was happening to the royal family of England(i mean simmilar only as for the hemophilia,not the endogamy) and they had 2 queens in the last century.

[gmellos]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Interesting all these,but Oedipus wasn't mentioned nowhere(in the <official> and the <unofficial> versions of the myth of Lavdakides house) as someone with a health problem in his feet or elsewhere.Thus,we can cocnclude(allthough it isn't rational to conclude by myths)that the damage of his feet wasn't permanent.
By this myth wasn't emphasized Oedipus' health problems but the old curse that hit Lavdakos due to his sins and was later fullfiled on his descendands.
Now back to the endogamy between brothers and sisters,i think this was an ancient custom of the Egyptian royal families and was also adopted by the Macedonian dynasty of Egypt but this endogamy caused hemophilia to the male members of the family.Therefore only the female members(Cleopatra)acceded to the throne,because hemophilia affects only men.
Something simmilar was happening to the royal family of England(i mean simmilar only as for the hemophilia,not the endogamy) and they had 2 queens in the last century.

Regarding the second English Queen if it wasn't for her uncle falling in love with a American divorcee and choosing her and not the Crown I'm sure we'd they'd a male King in England right now!?

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by gmellos

Regarding the second English Queen if it wasn't for her uncle falling in love with a American divorcee and choosing her and not the Crown I'm sure we'd they'd a male King in England right now!?

Yes,i know the story with Elizabeth's uncle and his American wife,i think her surname was Simpson.There was a rumor that she was actually a man,as it was,allegedly proved after her death and a guy had written a book about this.