FYROM should join an Albanian confederation

[chicagogeorge]

No way in hell will FYROM ever be a part of an Albanian confederation. Only Tetovo where the Albanian population historically dominates would that be plausible, but the rest of FYROM is by far Slavic, and closely aligned to Bulgaria (whether they like it or not).

[Grace]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

No way in hell will FYROM ever be a part of an Albanian confederation. Only Tetovo where the Albanian population historically dominates would that be plausible, but the rest of FYROM is by far Slavic, and closely aligned to Bulgaria (whether they like it or not).

George,
a split would not be easy. 40% of population will not just get a town and leave. For example some 45% of your population now is in Athens so if (hypothetically) there was a split in Greece, Athens would get alot more in land than Athens. For example, in your entire Janina district you only have 300,000 people. It's virtually empty whereas Athens is packed.

Maybe time comes that they the "lost Bulgars" hate Bulgaria more or feel threatened by the rest

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Grace

...

Regarding Turkey: I think they will keep the 'Taliban' in check, they are very powerful when it comes to the military and if they become a bite more "islamic" in appearance they will still maintain a powerful enough role in the 'hood. With 70 million people you are bound to have a few million troublemakers.

Turkey my arse! I have the impression that there was once an Ottoman empire mightier than modern Turkey, and at that time Greece... What Greece?

Yet, the Ottoman empire collapsed because of internal divisions, and every Balkaner got his/her country out of it.

The Turks have a large Kurdish minority that cannot be controlled, and they have other divisions as well. All of these conflicts have been fatal for decades, and they are awaiting to explode. Forget Turkey...

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Grace

how many juntas has the "birthplace of democracy" had so far despite all that hand holding by foreign powers?

One.

Originally Posted by Grace

It took an invasion to save you from communism despite having had a state for 100 years longer that Albanians.

PLease tell me more about this "invasion".

Originally Posted by Grace

Of course it took all the world powers to win the battle of Navarino as well

Thats because instead of hating us or (even worse)not caring,people actually like us!

Originally Posted by Grace

Albanians are now in schools everywhere from Greek and Italian colleges to Harvard. It's just a matter of time and in 10 years no one will need to immigrate from Albania. By next year water + electricity + roads will be solved, making way for tourism and investments. With the world finally paying attention and keeping an eye on us it's just a matter of time. US and EU want the entire Europe together so they'll make room for small and not so polished countries.

ZEro chance of that in 10 years.100 maybe.

[Paulos Melas]

There is no way illigal immigrants to acquire minority rights.
What will happen with the turks in Germany or the pakistani in UK?
No chance whatsoever

[TirAlb]

Paulos Bulgarians emigrated in those regions centuries ago, we can't consider them illegal emigrants anymore. I think they should have their minority rights in the hypothetical Albanian conf. , proposed by Grace.

[Grace]

Exactly. Chams were not immigrants and that area was only taken by Greece in the 20th century. Also no police should break up a concert in a native langauge. You guys are very very very sensitive to anything that suggest that non-Greeks are living there. Why?

One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193). http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

Should we do the same to the Greeks (and fake Greeks) in Albania? Or worse, throw them out for "collaborating" ?

FYROM President visited Albania and they agreed on something before he fired the latest shot at Greece. An economic blocade will fail for one (Durres will be their port)

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Grace

Also no police should break up a concert in a native langauge.

I totally agree,unless the lyrics of these songs are something like <Bezite Grtsite>.Really,what would the Albanian police do,if some <Makedontsi> (i think there are some of them in Albania) sang <Bezite Albantsite> (Go away Albanians)?

Originally Posted by Grace

You guys are very very very sensitive to anything that suggest that non-Greeks are living there. Why?

Not too many years ago,some of those non Greeks collaborated with the nazi invaders in order to separate some areas from Greek soil and annex them to neighboring states.

Originally Posted by Grace

Should we do the same to the Greeks (and fake Greeks) in Albania? Or worse, throw them out for "collaborating" ?

But you have done already the same:
<the other Balkan countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, and later Albania) had also followed similar policies.> It's from the same link you quoted.
And since you didn't read it carefully,let me help you with some very interesting excerpts about the Arvanites:
<Since the 1980s, some efforts to preserve Arvanite culture have been made. A congress was held in 1985. Four cultural associations have been created: the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Hellados (the Arvanite League of Greece) which has been publishing, since 1983, the bimonthly Besa (in Greek); the Kentro Arvanitikou Politismou (Center for Arvanite Culture); the Arvanitikos Syllogos Ano Liosion (Arvanite Association of Ano Liosia); and the Syllogos Arvaniton Corinthias (Association of Arvanites of Corinthia). Books on Arvanite culture have been published. Church reading and chanting in some Arvanite villages has been reported (Williams, 1992:87). Finally, we had the release of a CD with Arvanite music mentioned above>.
<Since the 1980’s, there has been a creation of Arvanite cultural associations and publication of a magazine and some books on Arvanite culture (very little though published in the language). In some areas, Easter Gospel is read in Arvanitika (Gerou, 1994a). Perhaps the most significant -for the large public- venture is the release of the CD -with an attached explanatory booklet- Arvanitic Songs (FM Records, 1994).>
<Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193)>.
<Indeed, the recent (in the early 1990’s) arrival of hundreds of thousands, mainly illegal, Albanian immigrants in Greece has led to a successful test of that mutual intelligibility, when many settled in Arvanitika villages (it is also noteworthy that in these villages we have seen the two most serious incidents of beatings of Albanian immigrants).>
So much about the <oppresion> of Arvanites by the Greek state.

[euro]

Originally Posted by Grace

FYROM President visited Albania and they agreed on something before he fired the latest shot at Greece. An economic blocade will fail for one (Durres will be their port)

Albania Can Learn From Macedonia's "Bravado" Towards Greece

Text of report by Albanian leading national independent newspaper Shekulli, on 22 July [Commentary by Ilir Kalemaj: "Tactical Diplomatic Move"]
In this corner of southeastern Europe, the letter that Macedonia's Prime Minister Gruevski addressed to his Greek counterpart Karamanlis a few days ago, came for many as a bolt from the blue, especially considering Macedonia's problems over its name with Greece which, by its veto, has excluded it from NATO membership and threatened to do the same with Macedonia's EU membership unless an agreement is reached over this problem on Athens' conditions.?
However, there is logic to Gruevski's apparent bravado? Following Macedonia's early election which returned Gruevski in triumph to the head of the government with a solid majority, which was mainly due to a populist and nationalist electoral platform, he needed this tactical move for two reasons:? He needs both to give further guarantees to his Macedonian Slav electorate that brought him back to power and to test the international waters to see the extent of backing that he can claim from the US Big Brother [two preceding words in English], who has been the constant and consistent supporter of the tiny Balkan state.
Couched in half-threatening terms, his letter to Karamanlis was intended to defend, as he says, the interests of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece, calling for the opening of Macedonian- language schools for emigrants from this country in Greece and the recognition of dual citizenship for a minority which the Greek state does not recognize.
At the same time Macedonia's President Crvenkovski was having a one-on-one meeting with Albania's President Topi.? This was no mere coincidence if one reads the press release issued thereafter, in which Albania again voices its readiness to put the facilities of the port of Durres at Macedonia's disposal, a measure that insures Macedonia against any eventual economic blockade on the part of Greece, which closed the port of Thessaloniki to Macedonia a few years ago.
Despite the strained relations between Macedonia's prime minister and president, which, only a few days ago, led to the latter's declaring that he would not run again for president precisely because of these differences, there is an admirable solidarity between them when it is a question of major national interests or the coordination of their state's moves with regard to a third party.
This should serve as a lesson for the Albanian Government which, in its official pronouncements, at best, deals with Albanians' property in Greece, or the rights of the ethnic Albanian minority there, as technical problems, if it does not ignore these problems altogether, which it does for the sake of certain petty personal interests of the moment.?
The same childish behaviour is seen in its relations with the Macedonians, who, only a little time ago, well nigh closed the door in our face by imposing high visa tariffs for Albanians going to Macedonia, although they knew that they would be the losers in this absurd move.
Reverting to Gruevski's letter and the response to it, the immediate answer from Greece's Prime Minister Karamanlis is worth mentioning? Not only did he reject the allegations of the Macedonian side as unsubstantiated but, moreover, he accused his Macedonian counterpart of letting himself be carried away by his emotions, which would be fatal for Macedonia's course toward NATO and the European Union, while at the same time referring to the European Court of Justice and the Strasbourg Tribunal of Human Rights as institutions of arbitration that the Macedonian side might resort to over its juridical claims.
The fallout from this tactical move of Gruevski's, the benefits that may or may not, accrue from it as compared to their cost, would require an extensive and substantial analysis, as would Greece's official reply, which expresses a certain political and diplomatic stance.
Albanian diplomacy should carefully study these moves which, if taken into consideration, may ensure that Albania plays an important role in this area of the Balkans, a role which would be incompatible with the petty interests of its political parties.
National interests are expressed through tactical moves in bilateral and multilateral relations, with every tactical move being made as a function of strategies that are worked out following preliminary consultations with experts, so as not to be taken unawares by international contingencies.
Originally published by Shekulli, Tirana, in Albanian 22 Jul 08, p16.
(c) 2008 BBC Monitoring European. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.

Story Source: BBC Monitoring European

.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2427184&title=Albania_Can _Learn_From.html

[Cadmus]

Originally Posted by euro

Albania Can Learn From Macedonia's "Bravado" Towards Greece

Text of report by Albanian leading national independent newspaper Shekulli, on 22 July [Commentary by Ilir Kalemaj: "Tactical Diplomatic Move"]
In this corner of southeastern Europe, the letter that Macedonia's Prime Minister Gruevski addressed to his Greek counterpart Karamanlis a few days ago, came for many as a bolt from the blue, especially considering Macedonia's problems over its name with Greece which, by its veto, has excluded it from NATO membership and threatened to do the same with Macedonia's EU membership unless an agreement is reached over this problem on Athens' conditions.?
However, there is logic to Gruevski's apparent bravado? Following Macedonia's early election which returned Gruevski in triumph to the head of the government with a solid majority, which was mainly due to a populist and nationalist electoral platform, he needed this tactical move for two reasons:? He needs both to give further guarantees to his Macedonian Slav electorate that brought him back to power and to test the international waters to see the extent of backing that he can claim from the US Big Brother [two preceding words in English], who has been the constant and consistent supporter of the tiny Balkan state.
Couched in half-threatening terms, his letter to Karamanlis was intended to defend, as he says, the interests of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece, calling for the opening of Macedonian- language schools for emigrants from this country in Greece and the recognition of dual citizenship for a minority which the Greek state does not recognize.
At the same time Macedonia's President Crvenkovski was having a one-on-one meeting with Albania's President Topi.? This was no mere coincidence if one reads the press release issued thereafter, in which Albania again voices its readiness to put the facilities of the port of Durres at Macedonia's disposal, a measure that insures Macedonia against any eventual economic blockade on the part of Greece, which closed the port of Thessaloniki to Macedonia a few years ago.
Despite the strained relations between Macedonia's prime minister and president, which, only a few days ago, led to the latter's declaring that he would not run again for president precisely because of these differences, there is an admirable solidarity between them when it is a question of major national interests or the coordination of their state's moves with regard to a third party.
This should serve as a lesson for the Albanian Government which, in its official pronouncements, at best, deals with Albanians' property in Greece, or the rights of the ethnic Albanian minority there, as technical problems, if it does not ignore these problems altogether, which it does for the sake of certain petty personal interests of the moment.?
The same childish behaviour is seen in its relations with the Macedonians, who, only a little time ago, well nigh closed the door in our face by imposing high visa tariffs for Albanians going to Macedonia, although they knew that they would be the losers in this absurd move.
Reverting to Gruevski's letter and the response to it, the immediate answer from Greece's Prime Minister Karamanlis is worth mentioning? Not only did he reject the allegations of the Macedonian side as unsubstantiated but, moreover, he accused his Macedonian counterpart of letting himself be carried away by his emotions, which would be fatal for Macedonia's course toward NATO and the European Union, while at the same time referring to the European Court of Justice and the Strasbourg Tribunal of Human Rights as institutions of arbitration that the Macedonian side might resort to over its juridical claims.
The fallout from this tactical move of Gruevski's, the benefits that may or may not, accrue from it as compared to their cost, would require an extensive and substantial analysis, as would Greece's official reply, which expresses a certain political and diplomatic stance.
Albanian diplomacy should carefully study these moves which, if taken into consideration, may ensure that Albania plays an important role in this area of the Balkans, a role which would be incompatible with the petty interests of its political parties.
National interests are expressed through tactical moves in bilateral and multilateral relations, with every tactical move being made as a function of strategies that are worked out following preliminary consultations with experts, so as not to be taken unawares by international contingencies.
Originally published by Shekulli, Tirana, in Albanian 22 Jul 08, p16.
(c) 2008 BBC Monitoring European. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.

Story Source: BBC Monitoring European

.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2427184&title=Albania_Can _Learn_From.html

Good one for the Albs i can see a future mutual healthy relationship with Fyrom and Albania ! they can learn from eachother and evolve from that point..Fyrom being landlocked will not benefit them without any such cooperation...but the downside of a trade agreement with Albania is that Fyrom will not be dependand from Greece hence the name dispute will not be solved soon ...untill a new radical change in government policy will be installed..

What do the Albs think of such proposals..?
Tir alb do you see any such cooperation as fruitile or futile?LOL!