Excerpts of FM Ms. Bakoyannis’ interview on the “MEGA Breakfast” show with journalist

[Foti66]

Athens, 26 August 2008


Mr. D. Takis: Let’s start with the issues under the competency of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and, most of all, the Skopje issue This is an issue that has troubled us a lot lately, and in the past few days we have seen an amoral – let’s put it that way – policy on the part of Skopje’s Prime Minister.

Yesterday, Skopje’s Foreign Minister made some statements and I read today in the papers that Mr. Nimetz basically sends an ultimatum to Mr. Gruevski telling him that if he continues with these tactics, he will freeze negotiations. What is going on? Why is the other side so fanaticised?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Let me tell you what is going on. Mr. Gruevski is finding it hard to understand that these negotiations have a goal. And this goal is to find a mutually acceptable name for his country.

I respect that this is difficult for him, but he knows that this is the substance. And the substance is only one: that a mutually acceptable name has to be found and of course that this name has to be used at the same time.

That is, we should not follow the logic that we are playing hide and seek, just like it happened with the name FYROM. FYROM was the official name for international organisations, we were playing hide and seek every time. They were trying to get the sign down or replace it with a different one.

So they themselves have to accept the name that we will agree on. Mr. Gruevski has been trying for a long time to find ways to avoid, evade, the substance of negotiations;

putting things on the table, adding new things, insulting or intervening in our country’s domestic affairs.

We have sent a very clear message, that we want a solution, we want to negotiate seriously, Mr. Nimetz knows that. Mr. Gruevski was annoyed with Mr. Nimetz’ proposals, but this is his own business not ours.

Greece is firm on its view. Greece wants to find solutions but at the same time when we are faced with behaviours such as the ones observed lately, a solution cannot be found and the responsibility for the lack of progress with regard to his country’s European or Euro-Atlantic course lies solely with Mr. Gruevski. It is not on Greece, Mr. Takis, and that is what matters.

And because now they are trying to find other excuses, Greece has been saying the same thing for the past two years. Precisely the same thing. A friend of mine used to say that the church has been saying the same thing for 2,000 years, so we too remain firm on our view.

Because Greece’s position is clear, it is crystal clear, it is the national position of all the political parties, we are firm on that, and we are sending a message of good neighbourly relations.



Mr. D. Takis: Let me ask you something, Ms. Bakoyannis. With what you just told me which was almost the same as the announcement published the day before yesterday in answer to Skopje’s Prime Minister, you basically announce a veto in October for FYROM’s EU accession talks, isn’t that right?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Of course, Mr. Takis. But we’ve said so, they know. They know it too. They know very well that there cannot be a European or Euroatlantic course without a solution on the name issue, because this is the basis of good neighbourly relations.

And there are rules on inter-state relations. Nobody takes it out on the others. I am not allowed to. There are many times that I would like to react differently. I cannot.

I am the Foreign Minister of Greece, I have the responsibility and I cannot react emotionally. But this does not only stand for the Greek Foreign Minister, it stands for everyone.

So relations between countries have to be based on principles. And a fundamental principle is the principle of good neighbourly relations. But this is what we expect from Skopje...



Mr. D. Takis: You know what strikes me? That one day after Mr. Nimetz’ contact with the Skopje mediator, the newspapers in Skopje were saying that there is at last a ray of light, there is a package, we are probably heading towards the finish line on the solution.

And suddenly, 2 days later, after the end of the meeting with Mr. Vassilakis, Mr. Gruevski is now talking about a double name. That is, he is taking a few steps back and says that the only concession they can make is a double name. Macedonia for the entire world and a name between them and Greece. Aren’t these quite a few steps back? Isn’t the whole matter torpedoed?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: A great many steps. And it seems that, after whatever contacts he had, yesterday he made different statements again. In politics, we are all judged, I’m saying this for everyone. I’m not only talking about Greek politicians, we are judged based on the consistency and firmness of our views rather than occasional mood alternations.

The public doesn’t want people with mood alternations but people supporting their views firmly, consistently and responsibly. He is judged by his own people, we are judged by the Greek people.

I would like assure your viewers about one thing, that there is no way Greece will change its policy.

Greece has a firm policy which we have been serving, an agreed-upon policy with all the political parties, and there is no reason to get upset and lose our calm. Mr. Gruevski chooses the course of Skopje and bears the responsibility for any consequences.



Mr. D. Takis: Are you more optimistic following his statements made the day before yesterday? I am asking this in conjunction with Mr. Nimetz’ stance on resolving the issue, or do you believe that it will drag on and potentially get bogged down?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I don’t know, Mr. Takis. I don’t know. We are always here, always ready to negotiate. We are negotiating and Mr. Nimetz knows that. Beyond that, what Mr. Gruevski does is his own business. I cannot predict and I don’t want to go into this game of predictions. We’ll see.

In any event, the world around us is becoming more and more unsettled, Mr. Takis. Greek foreign policy has many issues. The goal of Greece’s foreign policy is not to focus solely on the Skopje issue.

We have many matters that are of concern to us. We have the Cyprus issue, on which a dialogue will be launched...



Mr. D. Takis: Before we move on to different matters, let’s close this chapter. I would like one last position on your part on the name “Northern Macedonia” because there were some reactions domestically in Greece by Mr. Karatzaferis and some other people. Do you think that a solution of the type “Northern Macedonia” or any other derivative is a good solution? You said one name for everyone with a geographical qualifier.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: We’ve said a geographical qualifier, valid for everyone. And I want to be absolutely clear: The reasoning of those who every time there’s a name try to scorn it, is not shared by those who have the responsibility to negotiate.

We said what the framework is and it is within this framework that we are moving. There are many names within this framework of geographical qualifiers, there are many names.

We are ready to discuss all of them. We have no problem with that. Discuss within the framework of a geographical qualifier that would set apart our Macedonia from the rest of Macedonia.

Beyond that, we know that there are some people who try to scorn diplomats, who complain, the well-known Greek whining, etc. We know it, we take account of it as need be but if a solution is reached within the framework set by the Hellenic Parliament and our government, beyond that…



Mr. D. Takis: And I imagine that Northern Macedonia is one of the solutions you are talking about.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: It is ageographical qualifier, Mr. Takis, of course.



Mr. D. Takis: Ok, let's close the issue of Skopje here and move on to issues having to do with the latest tension between Russia and the United States. You also handled the issue. If I’m not mistaken, you will be in Brussels, the day after tomorrow. I would like to ask the following:

Does the latest rapprochement between our country and Russia under President and now Prime Minister Putin benefit our country at this particular time or not? What do you think?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I think these are two different issues. Greece has developed particularly good relations in the economic, political, and, I would say, wider cultural, commercial field, etc. with Russia.

We – our government – have fostered these relations over that past few years and I think that this is to the benefit of Greece’s interests. Beyond that, Greece remains faithful to its alliances.

It is, first of all, a country that belongs to the European Union, to NATO. It is a country in step with the positions taken by the other countries; it co-shapes these positions.

This means, that European Union countries do not always see eye to eye. The crisis in Georgia, the broader Caucasus crisis is particularly worrying for us, Mr. Takis. It worries us for 3 different reasons. The first reason is for the Caucasus region itself.

We have an armed conflict in the middle of the summer, during the Olympic Games, on their opening day, there was a hot incident, i.e., there were dead people in the Caucasus region. Some say 2,500, I don’t know the exact number, but it was a major disaster.



Mr. D. Takis: And since then, tensions between the United States and have been rising every day that goes by.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Since there has been tension not only with the United States; how did we get here? It’s something that we are today avoiding to look at. A big part of Europe is worried and deeply concerned about it.

Our effort is first of all towards full compliance with the French President’s six points, which were agreed upon by both the Russians and the Georgians.

This is the basis. Beyond that, we have to keep communication channels open with Moscow. Greece is following a policy of principles. Greece is in favour of every country’s territorial integrity. We are the last country that would...



Mr. D. Takis: It couldn’t have been different.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: And it couldn’t have been different. We support territorial integrity. At the same time, we support keeping communication channels open at all levels with Moscow.

Moscow is a partner for the European Union. It is a country within Europe, a country with which we have to find a balance. A new balance, I suppose, following the Caucasus crisis.



Mr. D. Takis: Are you concerned about Moscow's threat to interrupt its relations with NATO completely? Cut off all contact?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I don’t like this rhetoric in general. I am one of those within NATO who supported that the NATO-Russia relationship should in no way be interrupted.

That the NATO-Russia Council must go on. That it is a necessary Council because dialogue is the only way-out to the problem we have: that is, contacts between us.

So I don’t like it on the part of Moscow, I also don’t like it on the part of NATO members who supported it within the Council – fortunately they were few – and it wasn’t adopted.

The NATO Council decided to keep up efforts within the NATO-Russia Council, to continue its contacts with Russia and also decided to remain faithful to the decisions of Bucharest. You understand that Greece has every reason to support that strongly.



Mr. D. Takis: After the break, we will discuss the elections in the US and the Democratic convention already under way in Denver. We will also say a few things on domestic political current affairs as well.



Break



Mr. D. Takis: Before the break, we discussed with Ms. Bakoyannis the Skopje issue and the new reality on the diplomatic arena and in our neighbourhood following the tensions in the relations between Russia and the United States, and of course Europe’s involvement in this whole affair. I would like you to tell us a few words on the U.S. elections now, and more particularly the Democratic congress which already started in Denver.

And whether you think – let me put it this way – that the change of leadership in the United States, if the torch is handed over by the Republicans to the Democrats, if this happens, whether it will mean something for our own affairs as well.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Let me first of all say that it is very interesting to follow the elections in the U.S. and whoever watches them up close, sees a great many changes occurring in this vast country, changes in the society and in the people’s mentality.

So it is not only interesting from a political point of view, but also from a sociological point of view. Beyond that, I never agreed with the logic that any change in the United States would in one way or another influence our own affairs, because I think it is exaggerated and wrong.

Anyone who gets elected in the United States, elected to serve their own interests. And we serve our own interests.

Beyond that, there are people with better knowledge, others with more limited knowledge over the issues in our region.



Mr. D. Takis: They are maybe more or less philhellenes on certain issues.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Look, I see the term “philhellenes” being used in the papers, A or B is a philhellene, etc. or there was annoyance in the Turkish press…



Mr. D. Takis: Are you saying that this is more or less a myth?



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: I think that they are a bit of a myth, yes. The reality is that people serve their own interests, they do their own job. There are people with whom we come into more or less frequent contant. This is true and so they have better knowledge of the matter, but that's as far as it goes. I would not pay more attention to that. The logic of bells ringing when A or B was elected is unfounded in my view.



Mr. D. Takis: So I should not ask you to predict who you think will win.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: You can’t ask me that because objectively it is very difficult. As you see, opinion polls show it is a very tight race, as far as we can rely on them, because opinion polls in the U.S. are not very accurate, our own opinion polls are better than the ones in the U.S..

So it is very difficult for anyone to predict what dynamics there will be in determining the winner. You see, Obama support has stagnated lately in the U.S. We will see now, after the Democratic congress, whether he will have the boost that everyone expects. We will see.



Mr. D. Takis: In any event, many say that America should take a step and not keep turning in on itself, seeing things in a phobic way, particularly after 9/11. We’ve been hearing reports that people flying to the U.S. will have to wear armbands, and that those thought to be suspicious would even be electrocuted through this armband, we’ve been hearing a lot of crazy scenarios like this. Many therefore believe that the day after should be more optimistic and more democratic in terms of American way of thinking and that the country will not be turning in more on itself.



Ms. D. Bakoyannis: Mr. Takis, Europe sees the U.S. in a completely different way than the way America sees itself. That is, U.S. voters don't vote based on European criteria, they vote based on American criteria.

I agree that what the U.S. needs most of all is to open itself up. Secondly, it needs to look at Europe as an equal partner, a partner to cooperate with and not follow different logics; to sincerely cooperate with Europe. It is extremely important for Europe to sincerely cooperate as an equal partner with the U.S.

So yes, a lot needs to be done in the world we live in, and most of all, we need to understand that the world around us has changed. This is not 1990, it is not 1992, this is 2008 and the world has completely different dynamics. And these dynamics have to be understood, particularly with regard for world stability

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