The Fyromians from Hunza are coming back home!.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ZZm

I was just making a point.
The hellenistic era was over but her influence could not been overthrown by the roman culture. And there you see it was "reborn" after few centuries.
I was just making a point of how strong was the hellenistic culture and that its very easy for people who don't have their own alphabet and to have weak culture to be hellenized.

ZZm obviusly you haven't understood the G = g/(g+n) thing on lim n->0

=> G-> 1

I remembered where I read about that greek commanders in Alexander army that did not understood his orders. It was not plutarch.
http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html
I'm sure that you know this link.
So tell me. Is there a room for doubt for the language of the ancient macedonians?

ZZm that livius org guy ..ain't great knowledger of ancient Macedonian History
I know him ..he's a Dutch historian and he has made some "HEAVY" mistakes in varius quotes !!!
The incident that he's refering to is when Alexander drunk , killed Kleitus , and before that in anger called the guards "μακεδονιστί τῇ φωνῇ" = "in the Macedonian manner (dialect)" ...I challenge you to find me any historian who describes the fact saying that the "Greek soldiers haven't understood" !!!

The whole debate among historians was on the form μακεδονιστί because it means both : in Macedonian dialect (ας Μεγαριστί means in the doric dialect of Megara) or in the Macedonian language (as Θρακιστί = in Thracian language).

To see how badly does the writer in Livius org undestood the incident ...

If you want to see how intelligible was the Macedonian dialect to other Greeks ...remember that the Athenean Eurypides made 2 dramas in the Theater of Aegai in 410 BC (Archelaus and Bakkhae) in ATTIC and his audiance was Macedonians !!!!

In 415 the Athenean comedean Strattis made a comedy named "Macedonians" or "Pausanias" presentin an Athenean in dialog (that means understanding each other) with a Macedonian. The Athenean asks in Attic "what is the fish you Macedonians name Sfyraena ??" and the Macedonian answers in uncough Macedonian "Κέστρα μεν ὔμμες Ωττικοί κεκλίσκετε !!!". In attic it should be "Κέστρα μεν υμείς Αττικοί κεκλίσκετε !!" (what you Attics call kestra !!)

...Now I challenge you , livius_org and GOD ALL MIGHTY to prove me that the answer of the Macedonian isn't a form of Greek language !!!! .

Originally Posted by ZZm

Do you agree?

I'm oblige to warn you that waiting that the Ancient Macedonian tongue will be proved a not greek language is a 5% odd after 1990 !!!!

After warning you ..you can expect & hope what ever you want ..I can't interfere more in your beliefs !!!

[gmellos]

Originally Posted by ZZm

Geez. You are not one of the brightest "stars" here!

I DISREGARD WHOLE WORLD HISTORY AS INCONCLUSIVE, THAT MEANS MINE TOO!

My two quotes that I have as signature are for what I stand for!

The way history is read is just causing problems to the present and the future, and is pretty stupid to argue about something that is 2300 years old or to try to link your self with it.

Actually I HAVE a History degreee! You guys run around claiming the Rosetta Stone had Slavic on it and was hidden by a Greek conspiricy even though the translators where British! The problems that History is cuasing by the way it is currently viewed are that they DO NOT support your nation's claims!

MAybe It is because FYROM selectively disregards quotes from comtemptories of the Ancients whenever it doesn't suit your Slavic and non Hellenic theories of the Ancient Macedonians! Also please explain WHY Macedonian Kings and Noblity would claim decent from "NON-Macedonian" Legends and Mythological people!???

Also with regards to the Turkish Christian ie Pontic Greeks becomeing Greek scopian thoery. WHY WOULD a Turkish person who was part of the Muslim world since at least 1071 AD convert to be a Christian especially after living within a Muslim Turkish dominated Empire stay Christian knowing that equals Second class citizenship while Watching his Anatolian Greek Christian counterpart convert and adopt Turkish language and culture!!??

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

Tell us Zzmm why is it so hard for you people to accept the Hellenic nature of the ancient Macedonians??

Fine. I will accept it, when you will accept that the macedonians today are a separate nation, mixture of everything that lived and is living on that territory and that me and my people are representatives of them! After all greeks are not pure too, but united (many from them by force) by the greek idea.

I can live with that, can you?

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by kostas68

It's as possible as Tose Proevski and many other Vlachs in FYROM are proud of their <Makedonski> origin.Wasn't Proeski a Vlach?

By father side he was a macedonian, but from his mother side a vlach.
But today in Macedonia that are proud to be vlachs and they are not hiding it!
Can you tell me how many vlachs today are vlachs in Greece?

It's as possible as some 400.000 Albanians of FYROM don't wish the change of the constitutinal name <Macedonia>,according to Scopian polls.

Are we talking about the same thing here or what?
Its a foolish contra argument!
How many albanians do feel albanian in your country?

It's as possible as this woman is proud of her <Macedonian> ethnicity:

I have never heard that Esma said that she is not a roma, just like her over 50000 brothers and sisters that live in Macedonia.
How many do you have?

It's as possible as the descendands of all those Armenians,Bulgarians and Serbs are today <proude Makedontsi> :

Well ask the drummer of the legendary macedonian band "Leb I Sol" Garabet Tavitjan and his two sons, Garabet Junior and Diran, how they feel?
I'm sure that in Greece their names and last names will end on "-is" or "-os"!
Btw there are over 600 bulgarians and about 500 greeks today in Macedonia.
How many bulgarians do you have?
There are over 30 000 serbs in Macedonia.

It's as possible as all the descendands of those Christianized <Vardariotes Turks> are today proud <Makedontsi> :



Read in the blue-marked lines:
<The Byzantine emperor Theofilos settled in 840 in the valey of lower Vardar Turks,who were known as <Tourki Vardariotes> till the 14th century.They became Christians...>

We have 78000 turks in Macedonia.
How many do you have?
And can you tell me where is lower Vardar?

Oh you got me there!

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by Andrew

ZZm obviusly you haven't understood the G = g/(g+n) thing on lim n->0

=> G-> 1

The byzantium empire started to shrink and when it got to the borders ...
I know.
All I'm saying that the roman culture could not impose its self on the hellen culture even if it was on a very high level. And byzantium emperors who were not from a greek origin adopted greek language.

ZZm that livius org guy ..ain't great knowledger of ancient Macedonian History
I know him ..he's a Dutch historian and he has made some "HEAVY" mistakes in varius quotes !!!
The incident that he's refering to is when Alexander drunk , killed Kleitus , and before that in anger called the guards "μακεδονιστί τῇ φωνῇ" = "in the Macedonian manner (dialect)" ...I challenge you to find me any historian who describes the fact saying that the "Greek soldiers haven't understood" !!!

The whole debate among historians was on the form μακεδονιστί because it means both : in Macedonian dialect (ας Μεγαριστί means in the doric dialect of Megara) or in the Macedonian language (as Θρακιστί = in Thracian language).

To see how badly does the writer in Livius org undestood the incident ...

If you want to see how intelligible was the Macedonian dialect to other Greeks ...remember that the Athenean Eurypides made 2 dramas in the Theater of Aegai in 410 BC (Archelaus and Bakkhae) in ATTIC and his audiance was Macedonians !!!!

In 415 the Athenean comedean Strattis made a comedy named "Macedonians" or "Pausanias" presentin an Athenean in dialog (that means understanding each other) with a Macedonian. The Athenean asks in Attic "what is the fish you Macedonians name Sfyraena ??" and the Macedonian answers in uncough Macedonian "Κέστρα μεν ὔμμες Ωττικοί κεκλίσκετε !!!". In attic it should be "Κέστρα μεν υμείς Αττικοί κεκλίσκετε !!" (what you Attics call kestra !!)

...Now I challenge you , livius_org and GOD ALL MIGHTY to prove me that the answer of the Macedonian isn't a form of Greek language !!!! .

OK.

I'm oblige to warn you that waiting that the Ancient Macedonian tongue will be proved a not greek language is a 5% odd after 1990 !!!!

Hell, I'm young.

After warning you ..you can expect & hope what ever you want ..I can't interfere more in your beliefs !!!

But do you acknowledge that your theory is really out of any logical sense?

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by ZZm

By father side he was a macedonian, but from his mother side a vlach.
But today in Macedonia that are proud to be vlachs and they are not hiding it!
Can you tell me how many vlachs today are vlachs in Greece?

I don't know the exactly number of the Vlachs in Greece,perhaps they're 200.000,although the majority of them has been mixed in the cities with the rest of the population.I know for sure that all the Vlachs consider themselves Greeks,although they are proud of their Vlach origin,they don't feel that they belong to a separated ethnicity and this happens since centuries.
In the 19th century, Vlachs first rose against Turks, participating in the Greek War of Independence (1821-1828) and provided many of its leaders. Subsequently, the Greek state benefited from very generous donations of prominent Vlachs who had made fortunes in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios#Early_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ns#Benefactors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromani...tion_in_Greece

Later,during the Macedonian struggle(1904-08):



Today they have a lot of associations,organizations e.t.c.
http://www.vlahoi.net/
http://www.tamos.gr/koukoudis_speech_en.htm

As you see,the vast majority of the Vlachs in Greece always had Greek consciousness,never felt as a distinct ethnicity and no one forced them to <get Hellenized>.They identified themselves as Greeks either before the establishment of the Greek state,or while they were living out of the Greek state in 19th century (in Epirus,Thessaly and Macedonia).

Originally Posted by ZZm

Are we talking about the same thing here or what?
Its a foolish contra argument!
How many albanians do feel albanian in your country?

If you mean the Arvanites and not the modern Albanian economical immigrants,no one claimed ever that he belongs to an ethnic minority.They are proud to be Arvanites,no one forbids them to declare their Arvanitic identity,but they also considered themselves Greeks some centuries ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites
They have also their own associations:
http://www.arvasynel.gr/index.html

Neither the Arvanites nor the Vlachs in Greece were ever obligated by the Greek state to get Hellenized,as you imply it was their own choice the self identification as Greeks.

Originally Posted by ZZm

I have never heard that Esma said that she is not a roma, just like her over 50000 brothers and sisters that live in Macedonia.
How many do you have?:

I don't know how many are the Roma in Greece,but neither they renounce their origin and they are proud to be Roma.

Originally Posted by ZZm

Well ask the drummer of the legendary macedonian band "Leb I Sol" Garabet Tavitjan and his two sons, Garabet Junior and Diran, how they feel?
I'm sure that in Greece their names and last names will end on "-is" or "-os"!

Again you're wrong,no one obligated the Armenians in Greece to change their names:
http://www.ayf.gr/gr/drasthriothta.asp?id=2
In the fifth article <ΠΑΝΑΡΜΕΝΙΚΟ ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΟ ΝΕΟΛΑΙΩΝ ΤΗΣ Α.Ε.Ο. ΣΤΟΝ ΚΑΝΑΔΑ> is mentioned a global congress of Armenian youth organizations in Montreal and in the last two lines it writes that <A.N.E. (Armeniki Neolea Elladas=Armenian Youth of Greece) participated with two members of the central committee,Sayik Berberian and Krikor Tzanikian>.You see,the bad Greek authorities didn't imposed them to change their names to Berberianis and Tzanikianos.

Originally Posted by ZZm

Btw there are over 600 bulgarians and about 500 greeks today in Macedonia.
How many bulgarians do you have?

We have some 6.500 Bulgarians.They are the ones who voted Vinozito.

Originally Posted by ZZm

We have 78000 turks in Macedonia.
How many do you have?
And can you tell me where is lower Vardar?

Oh you got me there!

We have 60.000 Turks and other 60.000 Roma and Pomak Moslems in Thrace,who have their own schools,mosques,e.t.c.As for the Turks in lower Vardar,if you read carefully this...

Originally Posted by Andrew

...you'll notice that these Turks are connected by all the authors to the Bulgarians:K.Jirecek (prominent Czhech Byzantinologist) mentions them in his book <Geschichte der Bulgaren> (History of Bulgarians),F.Racki considers them responsible for spreading Islam in Bulgaria,S.Novakovich mentions them in his book <Ohridska archiepiskopija>.So,they were settled in those areas of Vardar where the Bulgarians were living,not the Greeks and when they became Christians were under the jurisdiction of the archbishop of Ohrid.I'm sure you know who were those Bulgarians in Vardar and Ohrid,eh?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by ZZm

Fine. I will accept it, when you will accept that the *********** today are a separate nation, mixture of everything that lived and is living on that territory and that me and my people are representatives of them! After all greeks are not pure too, but united (many from them by force) by the greek idea.

I can live with that, can you?

You are a separate nation. Greece did never deny that. It is just that you are not Macedonians. We don't really care what you are, but you are someting else, something different than us. alright?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by ZZm

The byzantium empire started to shrink and when it got to the borders ...
I know.
All I'm saying that the roman culture could not impose its self on the hellen culture even if it was on a very high level. And byzantium emperors who were not from a greek origin adopted greek language.


OK.



Hell, I'm young.


But do you acknowledge that your theory is really out of any logical sense?

The language of the state and much of its' people was Greek. The emperors had no choice really. But tell me, why did Alexander not adopt the Persian language too, but imposed the Greek language in much of his empire, and why did his successors did the same after him? They could have adopted the Persian language just as the Byzantine emperors adopted the Greek language. Right or wrong?

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Every nation need an excuse, to justify its loses,and the reason for it, is usually imputed to a third person, so you just invented this so called crucial (Archinovo) event from when everything went wrong. Serbs have their 1st battle of Kosovo, and the treason of Brancovich,Albanians have the first Illyro-Roman war and the treason of Demetrius Pharus or the second battle of Kosovo with again the treason of Brankovich,and you, now have this pity mountain skirmish.At least you are justified,your nation is only 18 years old,and you have nothing else, noteworthy.

What the hell are you talking about?
What invention?

Probably ZZm you are even older than your own nation,though i doubt it.

Lets just say that I'm older than Alexander when he crushed the rebellion of the greek city states.

It’s called partisan warfare ,its very honourable, and its the only way to fight an invader superior in numbers and equipment

Who was the invader?
Most of "your" fighters where from Kosovo, entering in Macedonia under the awake eye of KFOR
Your "freedom fighters" cannot be called honourable!
The albanians had all rights so there was no need of freedom fighting.
All your leaders are criminals!

,but of course you don’t know nothing about it since your people probably have never done such thing,even the territories you now own, were invaded from Serbia and then given to you

My grandfather was a partisan so I know what is that and he fought against fascism unlike your "partisans"( bali kombetar) who were fascists!
And stop reading greek and serbian version of history. The first want to kick all your co patriots from Greece and the others, well you know.

So the guy was traveling with a bomb in his inner pocket?Why a bomb an not a gun?

Cause a bomb will make a more damage on a military vehicle!

And who caught him in surprise the clumsy and fatty FYROM-ian policeman armed with his signalistic disc? Stop relying on lies you fool, it was just another crime of yours ,for a moment you guys forgot that you are FYROM-ians and not Serbs, but we dismounted you very quickly.

Typical albanian. Always denying the truth even if its bright as a day.

ZZm your very existence is based on a lies.

Said the donkey to the rabbit that he have big ears.
That goes for the greeks too!

The typical answer one can wait from a FYROM-ian.

When you are going to post something real than you will get an appropriate answer.

I don't hate you ZZm, i pity you.

Save your pity for your own people.

Silly kid, i understand that your idea of nation is very vague and so you can’t understand the significance of fighting for the rights of your own people or contributing for a cause, in this case the Albanian cause. I understand that a Fyromian need to be forced to do these sacrifices,for his own country,but not an Albanian,so don’t apply to us your own logic. Today Albanians can learn in their own universities an wave their own flag, for us this is everything and only for sad people like you that is called is "dying for nothing".

Keep your crap for the western countries and your uneducated and poor people!
We know what kind of scum are people like you. The whole balkan knows it!
I'm sure that today the common albanian can pay for a higher education or to put food on the table for his family more easier when the economy is still weak and the unemployment is still high!
I'm sure that with the flag on the poll the common albanian can pay his bills, put a gas in his car, to send his children on a vacation etc!
Only your criminal leaders got jobs and better conditions!
The albanians had every minority rights fulfilled, and there was no need of the war which btw it had nothing to do with freedom fighting.
So I call that dying for nothing!
Since the only who benefited from that is Ahmeti & Co.
You saw the both parties in the elections. A big shame. Killing each other just for who to sit in the parliament.
So they fought for who to be in the government not for you!
You are the fool my deluded neighbor.

[ZZm]

Originally Posted by kostas68

I don't know the exactly number of the Vlachs in Greece,perhaps they're 200.000,although the majority of them has been mixed in the cities with the rest of the population.I know for sure that all the Vlachs consider themselves Greeks,although they are proud of their Vlach origin,they don't feel that they belong to a separated ethnicity and this happens since centuries.
In the 19th century, Vlachs first rose against Turks, participating in the Greek War of Independence (1821-1828) and provided many of its leaders. Subsequently, the Greek state benefited from very generous donations of prominent Vlachs who had made fortunes in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios#Early_life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ns#Benefactors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromani...tion_in_Greece

Later,during the Macedonian struggle(1904-08):



Today they have a lot of associations,organizations e.t.c.
http://www.vlahoi.net/
http://www.tamos.gr/koukoudis_speech_en.htm

As you see,the vast majority of the Vlachs in Greece always had Greek consciousness,never felt as a distinct ethnicity and no one forced them to <get Hellenized>.They identified themselves as Greeks either before the establishment of the Greek state,or while they were living out of the Greek state in 19th century (in Epirus,Thessaly and Macedonia).



If you mean the Arvanites and not the modern Albanian economical immigrants,no one claimed ever that he belongs to an ethnic minority.They are proud to be Arvanites,no one forbids them to declare their Arvanitic identity,but they also considered themselves Greeks some centuries ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites
They have also their own associations:
http://www.arvasynel.gr/index.html

Neither the Arvanites nor the Vlachs in Greece were ever obligated by the Greek state to get Hellenized,as you imply it was their own choice the self identification as Greeks.

With a 98% saying that are greeks and only a muslim greek minority recognized, which is not a minority only a different religion, I see Greece as a twilight zone!
Even the scandinavian countries have more bigger percentage of minorities than you, which is out of a any logical sense since Greece is in the balkan.
Are there any real greeks so they could really claim that their descent was plato?

I don't know how many are the Roma in Greece,but neither they renounce their origin and they are proud to be Roma.

Of course you don't know how many there are romas since they are greeks descents of Alexander and they have "is" and "os".

Again you're wrong,no one obligated the Armenians in Greece to change their names:
http://www.ayf.gr/gr/drasthriothta.asp?id=2
In the fifth article <ΠΑΝΑΡΜΕΝΙΚΟ ΣΥΝΕΔΡΙΟ ΝΕΟΛΑΙΩΝ ΤΗΣ Α.Ε.Ο. ΣΤΟΝ ΚΑΝΑΔΑ> is mentioned a global congress of Armenian youth organizations in Montreal and in the last two lines it writes that <A.N.E. (Armeniki Neolea Elladas=Armenian Youth of Greece) participated with two members of the central committee,Sayik Berberian and Krikor Tzanikian>.You see,the bad Greek authorities didn't imposed them to change their names to Berberianis and Tzanikianos.

Fine.

We have some 6.500 Bulgarians.They are the ones who voted Vinozito.

I'm sure that they have "is" and "os".
Come on men. We both know that Vinozito will have better chances if they were saying that are bulgarians but i guess we remain a sting in the eye.

We have 60.000 Turks and other 60.000 Roma and Pomak Moslems in Thrace,who have their own schools,mosques,e.t.c.

Its a joke men. In a 11 million country so little other people.
Can you tell is there are mosque in Athens and how many non greeks are there?

As for the Turks in lower Vardar,if you read carefully this...

...you'll notice that these Turks are connected by all the authors to the Bulgarians:K.Jirecek (prominent Czhech Byzantinologist) mentions them in his book <Geschichte der Bulgaren> (History of Bulgarians),F.Racki considers them responsible for spreading Islam in Bulgaria,S.Novakovich mentions them in his book <Ohridska archiepiskopija>.So,they were settled in those areas of Vardar where the Bulgarians were living,not the Greeks and when they became Christians were under the jurisdiction of the archbishop of Ohrid.I'm sure you know who were those Bulgarians in Vardar and Ohrid,eh?

Vardiorities Turks were scatered all around Macedonia but many of them stayed in "greek" Macedonia.
I'm sure that today they are proud descents of Aristotles.