Gruevski recognises FYROM as FYROM

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by rtgs

I like this type of clear questions, not backed by propaganda. I will have more at the end.



This has many time dimension. I will analize 2: ancient and today.

1. Ancient - FIRM NO. Greeks were Athenians and others south of "sterea elada", that mean that even Thessalian were NOT greeks.

What a load of shit. You have no clue what the term "Hellene" means.

Proof:
EPirus north of Sterea Ellatha:

Aristotle wrote in his work Meteorologica:

Greek text:
"...ἀλλ’ ὥσπερ ὁ καλούμενος ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος κατακλυσμό ς· καὶ γὰρ οὗτος περὶ τὸν Ἑλληνικὸν ἐγένετο τόπον μάλιστα, καὶ τούτου περὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα τὴν ἀρχαίαν. αὕτη δ’ ἐστὶν ἡ περὶ Δωδώνην καὶ τὸν Ἀχελῷον· οὗτος γὰρ πολλαχοῦ τὸ ῥεῦμα μεταβέβληκ εν· ᾤκουν γὰρ οἱ Σελλοὶ ἐνταῦθα καὶ οἱ καλούμενοι τότε μὲν Γραικοὶ νῦν δ’ Ἕλληνες..."

Translation:
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."

On the Thessalians, I have no idea where you assert this.

North Thessaly and South Macedonia form the region where the Greek Gods lived..... They spoke Aeolic, one of the main Greek dialects, and some ancient Greek linguists think that Aeolic was the basis of all the Greek dialects.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3062272


and the nail in the coffin....

"Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece".

Strabo, VII, Frg. 9 (Loeb, H.L. Jones).

2. For today - the question may not be if Macedonian like alexander the great were Greeks, but if Greeks of today (in short: <greeks>) are descendants of Alexander the Great Macedonian.

There are no blue bloods in the modern world. We all have mixed backgrounds, but on a cultural and linguistic level, the modern Greek speaks the same language as he did.

Yes, some of the <greeks> are descendants to alexander the great macedonian's people. <greeks> are MIXTURE made up in the last 300 years. Most of them are christians who came from asia (lidia, karia, ...) or africa (egypt). They were not greeks, but they have chosen smaller of two bad (<greeks> or turks). Was it right choice from todays perspective? I am now not sure.

The vast majority of the refugees from Asia Minor or elsewhere who came to Greece in the 1920's spoke Greek, had Greek names, and claimed themselves to be Greeks. What else do you need?

Furthermore - there were people like Vlach, Albanians, Macedonians, Thessalians, Trakians etc etc, who were assimilated to be <greeks>.

And Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, and others have been assimilated in FYROM to be Slavs today.

Don't forget that there are STILL living people in Republic of Greece that must be <greeks> even they want to be Macedonians. (or more precisely <macedonians> because we are mixture too). There were around 1 MILLION assimilated Macedonians to <greeks> in the 20th century alone.

Show me the evidence.

Until then.....

So - speaking that way - we may say that some of the <greeks> (small percentage 1.000.000 / 10.000.000 i.e. 10%) are descendants of alexander the great macedonian's people. On the contrary, most of the people in Republic of Macedonia are descendants of alexander the great.

At least we speak his language

I can't elaborate anymore.

Slav was the same as Macedonian. Slavs were here. They were slaves to the romans. We all know who were slaves to the romans, when romans, with a greek help, came to macedonia and defeated last macedonian king Perseus.

Find me one historical document that claims that Slavs were always in Macedonia. You can't. However, we can provide you with evidence that explicitly tell us of a Slavic invasion during the Byzantine era....

Slav language, and slav culture spread north and north east, at the very moment the roman empire was not strong to hold them.
Now, there are more peolple then macedonians who are slavs.

So the Slavs came from Macedonia and spread north to Russia

All big empires have their own big part of the Earth with people speaking their language. Either Macedonian, or Roman or English. There is NO GREEK.

You are from another planet.

Too bad for you this is what Alexander is remembered for:

"Yet through Alexander, Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the Hellenes ... Alexander established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Hellenic magistracies ... Egypt would not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Hellenic city, for by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its influence.'

(Plutarchos Moralia. On the Fortune of Alexander, I, 328D, 329A)

Of course, many people came here and went out in massive influxes, but still the majority is here. They just shift their culture, which from time to time includes the language (macedonians in south macedonia, who now speak only greek (since 1924 they had to), and up to 1912 their grandfather spoke only macedonian, are example we may easily see (if we want); or croatians who split from the serbs in just 20 years - their language is not easily readable for me now).

My mother's family is from Kozani. She doesn't speak Slavic, her parents did not speak Slavic, and neither did her grandparents. Same goes for my wife's whole family who are from Kastoria. Non of which are Asia Minor Greeks.

Show me a book written before 1912 that calls this Slavic language "Macedonian" I can show you 50 that prove that the Slavs of Macedonia were considered Bulgarian.

No - bulgarians were asiatic tribe with mongoloid characteristics, that were absorbed in the local balkan people who were speaking version of Macedonian. I don't see mongoloid characteristics on our nor on his face. Search for Asparuh. I agree that some of the Bulgarians has some mongolid faces, but they are very rare.

Bulgars were numerically smaller than the Slavs so they were absorbed, but kept the name as an ethic title. During the Byzantine times in Macedonia no "Macedonian" language existed. Please prove me wrong. Provide a source. In Macedonia you spoke either Greek or Latin. When the Slavic tribes came they brought their own dialects.

So NO - Tsar Samuel was not BULGARIAN.
However, I believe that his father has connection with Armenians. But that is another story.

The how come Basl was called the Bulgar Slayer after defeating Samuel's army at Orhid?

Yes I know that there were many many <greeks> in south Macedonia. Still not majority.

The most reliable figures show that Macedonia (Greek province) in 1912 was 40%+

Greeks were living in Macedonia even in ancient time, free, but in very small proportion.

My dear lord. What a brainwashed peasant.....

Tell me than if the Macedonians were not themselves Greeks why did they use a Greek word to describe their tribe? Makednos means Highlander in Greek. What does it mean in your language?
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...&searchmode=nl

Why did they worship Greek gods? With Greek names unlike the Romans who adopted the Greek gods but assigned them Latin names?

Why were Macedonians allowed to participate in the Olympics and other Greek events? No Illyrians or Thracians were allowed?

Why are ALL Macedonian names Greek?

Phillipos means "lover of horses"
Alexandros means "defender of men"
Perseas measns " to destroy"
Ptolemaios means "aggressive" or "warlike"
Kassandros means "shinning upon man"

Find me ONE Boris, Dragan, Anka, Bisera, Svetlana, Igor, Ivan, oski, ivic...... recorded in ancient times.


Find me one ancient Macedonian who did not have a Greek name....
http://historyofmacedonia.wordpress....edonian-names/


Why are the ancient towns and regions of Macedonia Greek terms.
Here is what they were called in ancient times. Find me one Slavic term.


Anthemous
Almopia
Amphaxitis
Bisaltia
Botiaia
Chakildiki
Edonis
Elimeia
Eordaia
Krestonia
Lynkests
Mygdonia
Odomantis
Orestis
Pelagonia
Pieria
Thassos
Tymphaea

Other examples: Emathia means sandy place,
http://www.jstor.org/pss/632555

Aegae the ancient capital of Macedonia means land of goats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegae


Thessaloniki means victory over the Thessalians,



Pella means skin in Greek.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none

however - the biggest influx was in 1920s.

1.5 million refugees entered Greece in 10 years time. About 600,000 were settled in Macedonia, so roughly 50%. Btw, the Province of Macedonia makes up 50% of the Greek territory. Not to mention almost 500,000 Turks left Macedonia. Someone had to live in those empty homes....

So, know my short question:
1. Why ancient Bulgarian language is not connected to Macedonian?

The middle ages (5-9thAD) is not ancient.....

2. Do you believe that Macedonian language derives from bulgarian, or vice versa?

As I said above, find me one historical source of this Slavic "Macedonian" language prior to the early 1900's which did not call it Bulgarian. I dare you!

3. If we are Slavs and only slavs, who "settled" in Macedonia, where are avars and all other people who came here?

Absorbed by the numerically larger Slavic invaders.....

4. If Macedonians-"who were at the same time greeks, but not greeks for demosten"

If you were a non Greek, and someone called you a barbarian in ancient times, you would not be offended. Thus Demosthenes was trying to INSULT Phillip. Anyway read Isocratis on Phillip....

"... all men will be grateful to you: the Hellenes for your kindness to them and the rest of the nations, if by your hands they are delivered from barbaric despotism and are brought under the protection of Hellas".

Isocrates, To Philip, 154 (Loeb, G. Norlin)

"It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race".

Isocrates, To Philip, 127 (Loeb, G. Norlin)

dissapeared from the ancient times from north macedonia, but not from south macedonia -

What you call "North Macedonia" was NOT Macedonia in ancient times. The original Macedonian Kingdom was basically the part of Macedonia which is now in Greece, minus Pelagonia (Monastiri/Bitola). The rest of your country was called Paeonia and Dardania, and Illyrians and Thracians lived there!

and here is how Alexander thought of the Paeonians, Illyrians, and Thracians....

...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our FOREIGN troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia.

Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.

how they miraculously do that and there are no Macedonians-"who were at the same time greeks, but not greeks for demosten" in Bitola, but there are in Lerin? (of course they are the same on the both side (if they are not from asia minor), but i am just currious to see what do you think?

What the hell are you talking about? Slavs who renamed ancient Pelagonia and Byzantine Monastiri to Bitola? Find me where Demosthenes ever mentioned a place called Lerin The ancient name for this region was LYNKISTIS which means "land of the lynk in Greek.

5. If Macedonians-"who were at the same time greeks, but not greeks for demosten" survived that bad slavs in 7th century in south macedonia, why paonians hadn't survived?

The Greeks absorbed the Paeonians after Phillip annexed them. Just read the above quote and you can see that in Alexanders time HE did not think of them as Greeks..... Then the Romans assimilated most people of this region until the Slavs moved in. Don't forget, that the land where you live except for may 10% was NOT part of the historical kingdom of Macedonia. Actually, Macedonia was defined differently depending on the time period.




The populations further south were part of the Greek world, where major Greece cities such as Thessaloniki kept the Greek language alive. Don't believe me? Read the bible See who Paul spoke to and in what language!

Paul the Apostle, was summoned to Macedonia by a Macedonian in the form of a vision speaking to him in Greek

(Act Apost. XVI 9,10)

The Apostles Paul and Silas met Greek men and women in Thessaloniki and Beroea

(Act Apost. XVII 4, 12).


Why didn't the Apostle Paul speak to the crowds in "Slavic"?

[Makedonia25]

That table is incorrect.. It has NEVER read "Slav-Macedonians".. But "Bulgarians"!

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

Originally Posted by rtgs

bla bla bla


yes we are bulgar-tatar-asiatic who came to macedonia God know when and how, even you don't have any real proof, you cath me.


yes second time: christian people that came from asia in macedonia just 80 years ago, and formed new efesos in macedonia are Macedonians.

you catch me. i was lying, and you are right.


asians are macedonians, and we are asians.

congradulations - now go to the greek academy of historical science and take your Ph.D.

nooooooooot in history,,,,, in propaganda.... cheap propaganda

First even your people aknowledge that bulgar-tatars come from asia, to bad you dont admit you are a bulgar.
Second the Greeks that came from asia minor and formed "new efesos" are not Macedonians but still Greek, but like i said before the Greeks that came from asia minor dont make up the whole population of Macedonia.

Macedonians are not asian but Greek, you are asians

Congratulations to you too for never posting a link to back your insane claims, from your grand daddy's academy.

Everything to you is propaganda even when its written by non Greeks, when are you going to face the truth.

Btw im still waiting to see where you get the info about perun and volos your mythical gods

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Makedonia25

That table is incorrect.. It has NEVER read "Slav-Macedonians".. But "Bulgarians"!

Yes, I know, it was taken from a modern source, which was trying to be "politically correct". However the population distribution is correct.

Here is what the League of Nations said back in 1927. The League of Nations fact finding teams obviously called the Slavs in Greek Macedonia "Bulgars", and they do confirm the number of Greeks to over half a million.

[Truth Bearer]

The Greek goverment stopped calling them Bulgars after 1927 thus creating a neutral name somewhat.We didn't want a Bulgarian minority in Greece so the Slavs that stayed became Slav Macedonians.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by rtgs

and rainbow is not official greek party - greek authorities close it, or tiem to time, in order not to tale any vote.....

UNbelievable!

THis guy makes Dimitar look like a genius.

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by Greek-Cowboy

Even in front of your Gov't Buidling in Skopje you find the words of Macedonia in Greek?? Find me your language in the stones, cyrilitsa??? show us where you will find the magic words? Mr Hockus Pokus..

Of course - because our ancestors of that time, used that alphabet.

But, do you understand that alphabets CHANGE???

We are using other alphabet now, and ON THE OTHER side of time, 10.000 years ago - there is ANOTHER alphabet.


DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WORDS "GREEK" AND "HELEN" OF TODAY, HAVE DIFFERENT MEANING THAN "GREEK" AND "HELEN" FROM BEFORE 2300 YEARS. SHOULD I REPEAT THIS MILLION OF TIMES?????? stop spamming me with the "language/alphabet question". It doesn't prove who were MY ANCESTORS. Neither yours.

[kzk842]

Originally Posted by rtgs

Of course - because our ancestors of that time, used that alphabet.

But, do you understand that alphabets CHANGE???

We are using other alphabet now, and ON THE OTHER side of time, 10.000 years ago - there is ANOTHER alphabet.


DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WORDS "GREEK" AND "HELEN" OF TODAY, HAVE DIFFERENT MEANING THAN "GREEK" AND "HELEN" FROM BEFORE 2300 YEARS. SHOULD I REPEAT THIS MILLION OF TIMES?????? stop spamming me with the "language/alphabet question". It doesn't prove who were MY ANCESTORS. Neither yours.

Do you understand that this language we can read it?
Do you understand that before 6th century A.D. there was no Slavic in this area?




This is what is written in front of your government building.

ANCIENT
Makedoniarxon ton naon ti patridi
syn panti to kosmo to th,k,t etos

MODERN GREEK
Makedoniarxon ton naon tis patridos
kai pantos tou kosmou to th,k,t etos

There are some people in the area that can read the ancient Macedonian epigraphs,if you cant understand this....

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

First even your people aknowledge that bulgar-tatars come from asia, to bad you dont admit you are a bulgar.

Yeas too bad. Big part of your propaganada was based on that "we" (meaning our ancestors) came to the balkans. And on the contrary - you could not explain, why they had one language, and we different, while at the same time claiming that we are not macedonians, just because we don't use some ancient alphabet.

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

Second the Greeks that came from asia minor and formed "new efesos" are not Macedonians but still Greek, but like i said before the Greeks that came from asia minor dont make up the whole population of Macedonia.

Of course they don't make the whole population of macedonia. They are "only" 1 million. The other million is Macedonians who were forced to learn "greek". From 1920s to 1970s it was forbiden to people to speak their own mother language and if they do, they were forced to dig stones on "greek" islands, if not killed immediately.

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

Macedonians are not asian but Greek, you are asians

RIGHT. This stupidity was repeated to you many times, that you were brainwashed. And insted of explaining me:

HOW I AM ASIATIC, even I know 12 generations of my grandparents by name and birth place, and they are all in MACEDONIA? (and I assume that the remaining were here too, up to alexander the great's time and BEFORE)

How the christian people that came from asia just 80 years (that is 2 or 3 generations) and now live in macedonia are "exclusive-Macedonians", the one and only descendants of alexander the great macedonia? And further more - even "greek" at the same time:-)

Yes, repeat on more time that macedonians are greeks, and i am asian. Maybe it will help you to cure from so many simple truth.
Maybe the propaganda may succeed, but maybe NOT :-)))

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

Congratulations to you too for never posting a link to back your insane claims, from your grand daddy's academy.

aha - i need a book by some writer who came here for 2 weeks, drank few ouzo, wrote a book, got his salary and went back and never came back to macedonia,

BUT my grandfater, and his father who lived most of their time in macedonia, who told me that we are macedonians is not relevant???

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

Btw im still waiting to see where you get the info about perun and volos your mythical gods

on many places - books, conversation, internet, .... does it matter? what is your point?

[kzk842]

Originally Posted by Victor

UNbelievable!

THis guy makes Dimitar look like a genius.

+1......