Greece's first mistake since Bucharest

[tyrian30]

The Greek Government has been giving signals that 'New Macedonia' would be acceptable.

It is a big strategic mistake to show your cards like this before the negotiations have begun. It puts us at a disadvantage for the following reason:

Athens: "We are open to the name of Republic of New Macedonia"
Nimetz: "Ok, we'll put that to the Macedonians"
Fyromians: "Ok, let's consider Greece's offer."

ten minutes later

Fyromians: "We've considered Greece's offer - we grudgingly accept to have the 'New' component in the name but we prefer to have it like this: "New Republic of Macedonia".
Nimetz: "Thank you for your climb down and compromise. I will relay your offer to the Athens"
Athens: "Fyrom's offer is not acceptable to us, we insist on "New Macedonia".
Nimetz: Look Athens, you can't make an offer and expect it to be accepted without small changes, you have to be flexible, you can't refuse to negotiate on the details. The Macedonians have compromised and accepted the 'New' component to their name and you have to bite your lip and make concessions too. You offered the "New", they accepted this as a basis, now you must accept something of theirs. This is how negotiations work.
Let's have some reciprocity from you or you will be the intransigent party and the reason for the breakdown of these negotiations.

RESULT: either we accept "New Republic of Macedonia" (in which case the "New" will be dropped in everyday parlance, leaving "Macedonia" and "Macedonians") or Greece will be the touted as the reason of the breakdown in talks. The failure of negotiations will give a fast-track to Fyrom for international recognition as "Republic of Macedonia".

Why can't our government say "We want negotiations to start as soon as possible" AND LEAVE IT AT THAT, DON'T SAY ANOTHER WORD.

As usual, we Greeks can't keep our big mouth shut and we'll pay for it.

[tyrian30]

It's no good making official noises about what is acceptable to us before the negotiaitons have even begun.
We should wait until after their elections, gauge the sentiment of their people, assess how far the nationalist grip on the Fyromian government has weakened, determine the pressure which can be applied by opposition parties and the Albanians AND USE THESE FACTORS TO EFFECT THE NEGOTIATIONS IN OUR BEST INTERESTS.

A few days ago we officially said that "Athens is not in a hurry to reach a solution". Why is our governmnet panicking and offering names then?

Six months down the line, the fyrom government and mandate may be in such dissaray, they may be suffering huge internal strife, that we may even be in a position to offer a name such as "Republic of Vardarska". Who knows what future lays ahead?

Why did our government commit publically to accept "Republic of New Macedonia"? What are they hoping to achieve by announcing this now? They haven't gained anything by doing so. It doesn't make any sense at all.

[masolord]

Why you guys just can’t let us call ourselfs Macedonians??
You guys are creating your own problems.
I say, cut your losses and move on. it could off been much worse.

we still will be friends ,you can come over for rakija

[tyrian30]

Originally Posted by masolord

Why you guys just can’t let us call ourselfs Macedonians??

Because you can't monopolise the word 'Macedonians'. There are Macedonians who want nothing to do with you or your country.

Originally Posted by masolord

You guys are creating your own problems.

We are not the guys who face extinction. And if you become extinct as a nation, you can blame your nationalism and uncompromising politicians.

[masolord]

=tyrian30;68969]Because you can't monopolise the word 'Macedonians'. There are Macedonians who want nothing to do with you or your country

we can be called THE macedonians and the greek one can be called Greek macedonians.
see there are two diffrent macedonians

We are not the guys who face extinction. And if you become extinct as a nation, you can blame your nationalism and uncompromising politicians.

[/quote]

we will never extinct

macedonian till the end!!!

[akritas]

Originally Posted by tyrian30

The Greek Government has been giving signals that 'New Macedonia' would be acceptable.

It is a big strategic mistake to show your cards like this before the negotiations have begun. It puts us at a disadvantage for the following reason:

Athens: "We are open to the name of Republic of New Macedonia"
Nimetz: "Ok, we'll put that to the Macedonians"
Fyromians: "Ok, let's consider Greece's offer."

ten minutes later

Fyromians: "We've considered Greece's offer - we grudgingly accept to have the 'New' component in the name but we prefer to have it like this: "New Republic of Macedonia".
Nimetz: "Thank you for your climb down and compromise. I will relay your offer to the Athens"
Athens: "Fyrom's offer is not acceptable to us, we insist on "New Macedonia".
Nimetz: Look Athens, you can't make an offer and expect it to be accepted without small changes, you have to be flexible, you can't refuse to negotiate on the details. The Macedonians have compromised and accepted the 'New' component to their name and you have to bite your lip and make concessions too. You offered the "New", they accepted this as a basis, now you must accept something of theirs. This is how negotiations work.
Let's have some reciprocity from you or you will be the intransigent party and the reason for the breakdown of these negotiations.

RESULT: either we accept "New Republic of Macedonia" (in which case the "New" will be dropped in everyday parlance, leaving "Macedonia" and "Macedonians") or Greece will be the touted as the reason of the breakdown in talks. The failure of negotiations will give a fast-track to Fyrom for international recognition as "Republic of Macedonia".

Why can't our government say "We want negotiations to start as soon as possible" AND LEAVE IT AT THAT, DON'T SAY ANOTHER WORD.

As usual, we Greeks can't keep our big mouth shut and we'll pay for it.

Greece is clear as Karamanlis said...We clearly spoke of a mutually acceptable solution on the basis of a truly compound name, with a clear qualification and valid for everyone........We explained that such a solution cannot be restricted to a description of the neighbouring country’s system of government.

Dont forget that Karamanlis is the person that finally will say the last word. And when I mean the last I include all parties (Greece, FYROM, USA, UN)
And at the present is obvious he doesnt want any agreement because FYROM is under election pressure.

[Ithaca]

At the end of the day we all know that the Name must be Mutually agreeable, if they want to keep rejecting names thats their perogative, they will find out what it's like in the wilderness...

[tyrian30]

Originally Posted by masolord

we can be called THE macedonians and the greek one can be called Greek macedonians.
see there are two diffrent macedonians

If we are called 'Greek' Macedonians, you must be 'Slav' Macedonians or 'Bulgar' Macedonians. Otherwise, you are being illogical.

Originally Posted by masolord

macedonian till the end!!!

Till you agree on a name.

[tyrian30]

Ithaca and Akrita,
I don't agree that we can refuse names perpetually until we reach a name that we find acceptable. This is not negotiating, this is the imposition of our will.
We will face pressure politically if we are seen to be the 'intransigent party' or 'unwilling to compromise'.
I don't believe our government's 'leaks' of "New Macedonia" is helpful at all. We have nothing to gain in showing our cards to the Fyromians at this early stage.

[akritas]

Originally Posted by tyrian30

Ithaca and Akrita,
I don't agree that we can refuse names perpetually until we reach a name that we find acceptable. This is not negotiating, this is the imposition of our will.
We will face pressure politically if we are seen to be the 'intransigent party' or 'unwilling to compromise'.
I don't believe our government's 'leaks' of "New Macedonia" is helpful at all. We have nothing to gain in showing our cards to the Fyromians at this early stage.

We dont show up all our cards. Dont forget and the other parametres except the name. Greece want a composite name for all uses and not only for the name of the FYROM State.
All uses (parametres) mean...constitution, passports, official documents, nationality, language and many others.